HID Research/Warnings

Here is an interesting article about HID conversion.  I am guessing that this may not be too popular with some people. But everyone should know about this before spending their money on HID kits. Hmmm, a little controversy. Anyway there is this saying, "There is no knowledge that is not power."
 
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/Hid/conversions/conversions.html
 
 

The point about the light production is true.  The arguement to this article is that light, or any wave for that matter, propogates spherically.  The only difference that using an HID kit could possibly make is that the center of the light may not be at the exact focal center of the housing, but then again when you change the bulb and don't use the exact same brand, you change the focus a bit as well ...... good info, but irrelevant to the scenario that they are trying to apply it to IMO.

"HID can not be a direct replacement for halogen light sources.  To install HID lights you will need new reflectors and optics that are specifically designed for that light source. ..."  This is from Sylvania's web site @ http://www.sylvania.com/ConsumerProducts/AutomotiveLighting/Products/HID/HIDFAQs.htm

"NOTE : Xenon HID bulbs can only be used in vehicles that have HID lighting systems. They cannot be used as an upgrade in conventional headlights."  From Philips' web site at http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/automotive/products/xenon2.php
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion but I could not disagree with you more. Your example of replacing one brand of (halogen) bulb with a different brand should produce only very slight differences that would have to be very small compared to cramming a HID bulb in a headlight specifically designed for a halogen bulb.  Not only are HID bulbs themselves shaped & sized differently compared to any halogen bulb but the actual source of light is also shaped and positioned differently within the various types of bulbs.  So even if you manage to position a HID bulb exactly inside the sweet spot of a halogen light fixture, the arc of light is not going to be the same shape or size as the filament inside a halogen bulb. The result will be a light source that is not focused properly and light shining in undesirable places like up into the eyes of oncoming drivers.  Not only that but some cars like BMW have auto-levelers which dip the headlight down when they hit bumps in the road to help keep from shining in the eyes of other drivers.  Getting a HID bulb into a sweet spot would probably be a combination of luck and trial and error. I really don't believe that any HID conversion kits out there undergo any real engineering, if they did you would probably see these kits mass produced by companies like Sylvania or Philips and sold at major auto parts stores. The Ebay specials you see were probably put together in some guys garage or made in some backwoods factory in China.

Maybe if you replace a halogen bulb with a cheapo halogen brand made in China or Taiwan made to poor quality and tolerances you would get a lot of glare too.

Sylvania does make kits but those are for sealed beam headlights or bolt on driving lights. Most cars these days don't have sealed beams.

Don't shoot the mesenger please.

i would have to agree that SOME cars shouldnt use the HID kits because yes SOME cars do produce too much glare with an HID kit. in my own personal car that i drive everyday, it does not produce that much problems. though yes it is brighter i cant say mine produce that much more glare than any other car. and they produce a lot more light for me because my night vision really isnt the best. so i think it shouldnt be illegal for everybody even though i know they wouldnt be able to control such a thing.

An HID retro bulb fits into the holder for the halogen.  Based on your first link, the HID would eminate light through the "sweet spot" as well as a bit beyond since the HID light comes from the glass surface and the bulb only shines from the filament.  Since our car's halogen headlights are not aimed like your BWM example, I don't think that system really fits this discussion.  The note from the second link is justified with referance to the ballast and igniter rather than optics -- please don't skew info to favor your opinion. 

I do agree that halogen fixtures are not optimized for HID use, but to claim that the light output would be all messed up with a conversion kit is wrong.  I think that everyone has to do their own research, but that doesn't seem to be the case lately.  Also, I welcome a debate on a worthwhile topic (not shooting the messanger!!)

I have aftermarket TYC projector fixtures that came with halogen H1 bulbs for low and high beams.  I retrofitted the low beams to HID bulbs and recently (since the pictures were taken) upgraded the high beams to better halogen bulbs.  I don't really like HID's for high beams since in the NYC metro area, you can't really keep your beams on for any length of time.  Switching on and off repeatedly is bad for HID's.

but it looks so good..........

I'd settle for not having a busted headlight....  Cement truck got me a couple of days ago, shattered big hole in the front glass lens, bulb still works for now....

I didn't read all of that article but it would appear his biggest issue is with beam pattern and such?  If that's the case then why not just get the actuall true conversion kit (if available)

Ludedude: I really don't believe that any HID conversion kits out there undergo any real engineering, if they did you would probably see these kits mass produced by companies like Sylvania or Philips and sold at major auto parts stores.

From the Sylvania link: To install HID lights you will need new reflectors and optics that are specifically designed for that light source.   SYLVANIA does have a solution for some vehicles, with the Xenarc retrofit kits.

There are pics of my lights in the link in my sig.  Is there any problem?  I like them, they are much brighter, they are aimed correctly, do not have much undirected light and they look great!

Falkore24, in response to your second posting on this thread:

I am having difficulty understanding what you are trying to say in the first paragraph. But if you have independent research conducted by photometric engineers to support your case then by all means where is it? Note, I would not consider website photos of beam patterns shining on the ground or on garage doors as independent or reliable or scientific research. I seriously doubt you even read the article on the web link in my original post or watched the YouTube video on that same link. I am not making this stuff up because I hate HID or something, nor do I have anything to gain from this debate if you want to call it that.

But I think we are in agreement on your second paragraph (sort of).  That is essentially what I was trying to say, that you can't expect to have a good beam pattern by sticking a HID bulb into a headlight designed for a halogen filament bulb. If you get a good pattern it would be a matter of luck.  And again unless you have a light tunnel and photometric equipment you really can't claim you have a good legal beam pattern just because it looks good shining on the ground.

Please don't claim my INDEPENDENT research citations are skewed when you have NONE to support your own arguments, it only makes your point of view appear biased and uninformed. You simply state some of my points are irrelevant or don't fit but you do not back it up. You wouldn't sell HID kits by any chance?

Those pics do look good, but you can't really tell just by looking at pics. Dang they look good.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sir_nasty

I'd settle for not having a busted headlight....  Cement truck got me a couple of days ago, shattered big hole in the front glass lens, bulb still works for now....

I didn't read all of that article but it would appear his biggest issue is with beam pattern and such?  If that's the case then why not just get the actuall true conversion kit (if available)

Ludedude: I really don't believe that any HID conversion kits out there undergo any real engineering, if they did you would probably see these kits mass produced by companies like Sylvania or Philips and sold at major auto parts stores.

From the Sylvania link: To install HID lights you will need new reflectors and optics that are specifically designed for that light source.   SYLVANIA does have a solution for some vehicles, with the Xenarc retrofit kits.

Yes, Sylvania does have the Xenarc retrofit product line.  But it is very limited ( Ford F-150, Silverado, Hummer, driving/fog lights, or sealed beams, that's about it) and some (F150) are discontinued. And these kits replace the entire headlight assembly, it's not just a bulb and ballast.

If anyone has ANZO Projector headlights, I contacted them and they said that they strongly recommend to stay away from HID because they had an incident a few years back of some melting.

Just thought id let yall know

quote:

ORIGINAL: falkore24

An HID retro bulb fits into the holder for the halogen (simple enough).  Based on your first link, the HID would eminate light through the "sweet spot" as well as a bit beyond since the HID light comes from the glass surface and the bulb only shines from the filament.  Since our car's halogen headlights are not aimed like your BWM example, I don't think that system really fits this discussion.  The note from the second link is justified with referance to the ballast and igniter rather than optics -- please don't skew info to favor your opinion. 

I do agree that halogen fixtures are not optimized for HID use, but to claim that the light output would be all messed up with a conversion kit is wrong.  I think that everyone (meaning less informed people and those without advanced physics training, not you :) has to do their own research, but that doesn't seem to be the case lately.  Also, I welcome a debate (your view = HID conversion creates a bad light output; my view = while not optimized, light output is not bad) on a worthwhile topic (not shooting the messanger!!)

I have aftermarket TYC projector fixtures that came with halogen H1 bulbs for low and high beams.  I retrofitted the low beams to HID bulbs and recently (since the pictures were taken) upgraded the high beams to better halogen bulbs.  I don't really like HID's for high beams since in the NYC metro area, you can't really keep your beams on for any length of time.  Switching on and off repeatedly is bad for HID's (electronics).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ludedude

Falkore24, in response to your second posting on this thread:

I am having difficulty understanding what you are trying to say in the first paragraph. But if you have independent research conducted by photometric engineers to support your case then by all means where is it? Note, I would not consider website photos of beam patterns shining on the ground or on garage doors as independent or reliable or scientific research. I seriously doubt you even read the article on the web link in my original post or watched the YouTube video on that same link. I am not making this stuff up because I hate HID or something, nor do I have anything to gain from this debate if you want to call it that.

But I think we are in agreement on your second paragraph (sort of).  That is essentially what I was trying to say, that you can't expect to have a good beam pattern by sticking a HID bulb into a headlight designed for a halogen filament bulb. If you get a good pattern it would be a matter of luck.  And again unless you have a light tunnel and photometric equipment you really can't claim you have a good legal beam pattern just because it looks good shining on the ground.

Please don't claim my INDEPENDENT research citations are skewed when you have NONE to support your own arguments, it only makes your point of view appear biased and uninformed. You simply state some of my points are irrelevant or don't fit but you do not back it up. You wouldn't sell HID kits by any chance?

Those pics do look good, but you can't really tell just by looking at pics. Dang they look good.

The sketch below illustrates the "sweet spot" discussion.  As indicated, the HID tube covers and emits light from all points that the bulb filament will hit.  This is what I meant by the second sentance of the first paragraph.



The remark about the validity of the second link is in referance to the paragraph below ..... the entire paragraph that the note that you posted came from:

      "NOTE : Xenon HID bulbs can only be used in vehicles
         that have HID lighting systems. They cannot be used as
         an upgrade in conventional headlights.
       The Xenon HID bulb requires an electronic ballast and has an
       electronic starter for quick ignition."

I never made any claim that the pictures of my car are research or scientific in any way.  The point of the comment was to show that the light output is not as bad as you make it out to be. 

I've read, watched and evaluated everything that you have posted.  Failure to do so would be ignorant!  I believe that the glare seen in the video is a result of the refraction made available through the use of such a high temperature kit, rather than the reflector/vector effects shown below. 

I do not think that you are making anything up, nor am I saying that you are wrong.  My point is regarding the extremety of your concerns for the light output.  To reiterate, the halogen fixture is not optimized for HID usage, but the light output will not be horrible in most cases. 

I have no concerns regarding your feelings toward HID lighting, but you do have something to gain from this debate.
       "There is no knowledge that is not power." ---- this is true

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Below are vector analysis sketches.  The reflector shape that I used is intentionally deep to create a larger variance between the types of beams for discussion purposes.

Here is the base sketch or control if you will .... the bulb.



Next is the HID tube placed in the same reflector (exact same reflector used, bulbs and vectors are on tracing paper).

You can see that the direct glare spread here is much larger, but the inner portion is confined by the first reflection vectors.  The resulting glare is at a wider angle, but similar in total amount of glare.  I believe that this illustrates your point.


Here's the interesting one .... the overlay:

This illustrates something that hasn't been mentioned.  From a distance, the bulb will produce a larger glare halo due to the larger resultant glare spread!  The other point here is to show that the differances in glare angles, while not insignificant are also not huge.  As noted above, this does not account for refraction since that is frequency dependant.  I'm only interested in the fixture vs. bulb effects (no need for proof why I'm discluding active HID fixtures also).

Your research is excellent and I'm glad that you presented it.  My concern is not regarding the note itself rather how you presented it.  The note appears to be in referance to optics (how you presented it) while in it's original context it does not.

My profession is posted in my profile.  I am a mechanical engineer and design HVAC systems.  I have also been an energy management consultant with my main role centered on lighting and optics.  In addition, I have done my own independant research on wave propagation and refraction with my main focus on sound and light.

Thanks for the compliment on the qualitative aspect of my pics!

I am not bothered or offended by anything you've posted and I hope that you are not by mine.  As mentioned, I welcome a high-level discussion and have enjoyed exploring this topic.  Thank you for allowing me to create the most in depth, time-consuming post that I have ever done!  It's rare that I am forced/allowed to deal with such a topic; I love it!


In closing, my inten

Who cares about wave patterns and glare, i got my HIDs because they look SA-WEET.
Then again i may be biasing results to better my opinion...im so smart and stuff

Hey Fenix, could you add a couple of pics of your LED's at night?

my exterior LEDs are busted, the last time i got my oil changed the place put the car up on the lift and smashed the rods. I do have a few videos of them running at night. if you'd like those i can get them to you.

I'd like to see how they look

falkore, a Sr. Mech. Engineer at 28? That's pretty impressive. What company do you work for in NJ? My dad is a PE and Director of Engineering over here and I draft for him. We do mostly medical jobs with some residential high rise and factories here and there.

Thanks for the props. I work in NYC.  I'm designing the HVAC systems for the Jacob Javits Convention Center renovation.  I plan to take the exam and get my PE by the end of '08 along with LEED accreditation.

Getting back to the topic, I'm very interested in a reply from ludedude!  We can discuss engineering and work related stuff on PM if you'd like finch.

i love HID's but i have 3 words for this thread "Do The Retrofit"  

What is a retrofit? I have 96 accord ex v6. Thanks

I would put HID's in my high beams only. Not only can you see better, but you dont have to worry about blinding people.

 
These are my new HID's in a new 2008 accord. The car did not come with HID however it did come with projector lights. I have HID's in the top projectors and in the bottom fog lights.

jb:  Looks good!

nafango:  I wouldn't do the highbeams unless you live somewhere that you can leave them on for a decent amount of time.  HID's don't like to be switched on and off a lot, plus they have to warm up to get to full brightness.

Thanks for the comments....I didnt do the high beams or the daytime headlights. Just the regular headlights and fog lights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sthavorn

What is a retrofit? I have 96 accord ex v6. Thanks

open your headlight housings, or buy a spare, or get some halos. remove some of the innards get some HID projectors, and ballasts and put them in the housings = real HID's. will be pricier than the kits but you will get the real deal HID's with that shweet cutoff. do a search here or google hid retrofit.

jblaust congrats on the new accord looks really good.