Strut and Sway Bars

Whats the difference between strut and sway bars?  Are they the same thing, or are there differences between them.  I know that you have FU/L and RU/L strut bars, but what about sway bars.  What are they and what do they do?

Also, FU strut bars go inside the engine bay, right?  Where do the FL bars go?  I'm guessing underneath the car?

Strut bars connect the strut towers. One in the bay and usually one in the trunk or rear deck lid (top). Lower strut bars usually connect 2 points of the chassis underneath the car, most consider them useless.
 
Swaybars connect the front control arms or rear control arms (usually). They act like springs to reduce body roll and help keep the wheels planted on hard turns, corners.

Just to add a bit to what blkcurrant said.... Some people will use the term strut bar and sway bar interchangeably meaning that a Lower strut bar is the same as a sway bar (which isn't true but it's a terminology thing that some people don't understand)

If you want to improve handling then get a larger front and rear sway bar (comptech makes some nice ones) and a front and rear strut tower bar (mugen is popular but as long as it's solid aluminum it's fine)... the lower strut bar in my opinion is worthless unless you've had some pretty major damage done to the car in the past that would weaken the cars overall structure

So, I see a Neuspeed front strut bar for about $120 and a Tenzo-R for about $70.  Why the difference?  Is Neuspeed that much better?  And what would you guys consider the best?
Neuspeed
 Tenzo-R

I would just go w/ a $30 eBay one.
 
One thing though, I remember awhile ago someone said you should install them when the car is on jacks?
Dont remember.

Neuspeed is better.

Is it true what 19Accord97 said?  Do you have to install them while the car is propped up?

That applies to sway bars.  With strut tower bars like you are looking it you can do with them just sitting on the ground.

quote:

ORIGINAL: atarikid07 So, I see a Neuspeed front strut bar for about $120 and a Tenzo-R for about $70.  Why the difference?  Is Neuspeed that much better?  And what would you guys consider the best?
Neuspeed
Tenzo-R

Some tower braces are for function and some for form, i.e. some tower braces don't work. From what I can see in that pic, the brackets at each end of the TenzoR tower brace don't look very well designed (i.e. not rigid enough). The entire brace including the brackets must be very rigid for the brace to work. If the brackets are not very rigid then the tower brace as a whole is as poor as if the brace tube iteslf were flimsy.
 
Don't buy a cheap brace unless you know something about structural design and can see that the brace is well designed. Even some less cheap tower braces could be better from the rigidity point of view, which really is the only thing that matters with a tower brace.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 19Accord97 I would just go w/ a $30 eBay one.

And would you be expecting that $30 tower brace to actually do anything, or just be happy with some spurious bling appeal?
 
There are two kinds of people; those who know from experience that good tower braces work very well to improve their car's handling, and those who bought cheap tower braces and from their experience think they are only for show...

quote:

ORIGINAL: 19Accord97 One thing though, I remember awhile ago someone said you should install them when the car is on jacks?

In the real world, no significant difference.
 
 

So here's my other dilemma.  Should I go with:

http://www.andysautosport.com/honda/1998_2002_accord/suspension/strut_bars/neuspeed/neus00037030.html

or

http://neuspeed.com/products/product_details.asp?app=16|AC&type=12&ltype=ns_import&p_id=841

Opinions?

 

 
The strut bar is the bright polished bar with "Neuspeed" written in yellow.  Anti-sway bars are the best bang for the buck when it comes to suspension.  I found a great article that I'll post later tonight, but it's probably too technical for most .... JohnL will appreciate it!

Those are both strut bars though, no?

Sway bar (aka anti-sway bar):  goes under the car from one side of the vehicle to the other and helps the vehicle maintan stability through cornering by attempting to prevent some body roll or "sway".  In the simplest of explinations when you corner the body rolls to the outside because of centrifical force.  When it does this the natural order of things is to start lifting the inside tire up so it has less contact with the road.  A sway bar tries to push that inside tire back down when the outside tire goes down.

Upper Strut tower bar (aka strut bar): goes from the top of one strut inside the engine bay to the top of the other, it's purpose/design is to prevent the struts from rocking in or out due to strain on the body through hard cornering by making the top of them more rigid.

Lower Strut tower bar (aka lower tie bar): same as the upper but goes on the bottom

The thing you will find is that many people who are not suspension savvy don't realize the difference between each of these components so you wind up with a lot of people calling a sway bar a lower strut bar or lower strut tower bar.  However, all three of these items are completely different.  As falk stated a sway bar is by far the best bang for the buck.

In his picture they are not both strut bars, one is a sway bar (aka anti-sway bar) and one is a tie-bar (aka lower strut tower bar).  However, as I mentioned some people will try to tell you (improperly I might add) that they are both strut bars and do the same thing.

One  minor correction .... for Accords anyway.  The lower tie-bar reinforces a weak part of the chasis and is only about 18" long.  It doesn't connect to the shocks like the upper strut tower brace.

Oh sorry about the misunderstanding.  I totally understand falkore's pic.  I meant in my post with both Neuspeed things.  Those are both front strut bars right?  Which would you guys suggest getting, cause they are two different designs, but one is about $60 less...

The Neuspeed picture is to small to tell exactly what it is....Kind of a funky design if it is a sturt tower bar... the Tenzo is a strut tower bar for sure.... I bought a $60.00 solid billet aluminum no-name one from my local parts shop and it made a noticeable difference.... the biggest thing you need/want is Solid core (no hollow crap) and good contstruction/welds on the pieces that mount to the towers, if you find those things then names make no difference.

NEUSPEED FRONT UPPER STRUT TIE BAR, TWIN TUBE DESIGN -- Made Of High Quality But Light Weight Billet Aluminum, Takes The Roll And Twist Out Of The Sheet Metal Tub Frame, Solid Mounting, Very Rigid, Making Steering Quicker And More Responsive, Easily Bolts To Strut Towers, Provides Maximum Performance With The Greatest Strength

I'm not sure how good the "twin tube design" is.  Is this good, or do I want a better one?

It looks like a very nice design actually.... it would appear that rather than having a plate on each side with a bar it bolts the bars straight to the towers then ties them all in which should make it very hard to twist (which is what you want)... Never seen that before but I love the concept, it seems sound in theory.... no brakets and junk...

Just go with neuspeed.

A friend had that bar in the poluished finish ... it's a nice bar.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sir_nasty Sway bar (aka anti-sway bar):   In the simplest of explinations when you corner the body rolls to the outside because of centrifical force.  When it does this the natural order of things is to start lifting the inside tire up so it has less contact with the road.  A sway bar tries to push that inside tire back down when the outside tire goes down.

Not meaning to be picky, but the affect is opposite to your description. The ARB (anti-roll bar / sway bar / anti-sway bar...) increases 'lift' affect at the inside wheel, not "tries to push that inside tire back down when the outside tire goes down" (whatever this statement means, as it seems a bit self contradictory).

Assuming lateral acceleration, and thus total lateral weight transfer remains the same (i.e. the sum of front + rear weight transfer remains constant), if the stiffness of a single ARB is increased then the amount of lateral weight transfer will be increased at the end of the car at which ARB stiffness has been increased, and weight transfer at the other end will be equally reduced.

Assuming no change in lateral 'G' force, the sum total of lateral weight transfer (front + rear) will remain the same, but the distribution of that transfer (front vs rear) will change. This is why (e.g.) increasing the front ARB stiffness tends to increase understeer, i.e. more weight transfers from the IF to the OF, but also equally less weight transfers from the IR to the OR.

This moves the grip balance toward the rear, i.e. more equally distributed rear weight, and less equally distibuted front weight, which in effect equates to more 'rubber on the road' at the rear than the front, thus more understeer / less oversteer (with an increase in front roll stiffness). Of course the opposite affect will occur with a rear ARB stiffness increase (or reduction in front ARB stiffness)

If front and rear ARB stiffness were increased equally then the grip balance would remain the same and the understeer / oversteer balance would be unchanged. What would change is the degree of roll (lessened) and the the general steering and handling responsiveness (increased). In this case there would be no change in the 'lifting' affect at either of the inside wheels, the degree of weight transfer would remain the same (assuming no increase in 'G' force, which will probably change), though the speed at which the weight transfer occurred would be faster (hence more responsive handling characteristics). 

quote:

ORIGINAL: sir_nasty
the biggest thing you need/want is Solid core (no hollow crap)

 
The tower brace's 'bar' being tubular isn't really an issue as long as the tube OD and wall thickness is great enough for the bar to be adequately rigid in compression (i.e. a strong compressive force doesn't cause the bar to 'bow' under load).
 
For tower braces where the bar is not bent in any way a tubular bar is usually adequate, but as soon as a bend is placed in the bar it becomes much weakened in both compression and tension, so solid would be better as would much larger external dimensions. Note also that bars that have a flattened bar section / shape tend to be weaker in compression (and tension if a bent bar).
 

quote:

and good contstruction/welds on the pieces that mount to the towers, if you find those things then names make no difference.

 
Agreed, but more important even than nice welds etc is that the attachment brackets are substantially rigid. If the metal from which the brackets are made is too thin or the bracket not well braced within it's design (providing a rigid load path from the ends of the brace bar to the tops of the 'strut' tower), then the brace is weak regardless of how rigid the bar itself may be. I would suggest that the bracket material should be at least 4mm - 5mm thick, and braced from the top of the bracket as directly as possible to as much as possible of the 'strut' tower top.
 
 

so about the sway bars which do u guys prefer? TANABE or ST SUSPENSIONS?

I loved my Comptechs.  Progress also makes an excellent product.  I think that Tanabe and ST are the same company, but I might be wrong.  I know that they make good strut bars, but I don't have any experiance with their sways.