RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 7/10/2007 10:09:33 AM
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Tony1M
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rugrat
......... Honda,(the kids behind the parts counter), suggested I "Try Sears,...they sell tools." I wanted to laugh but he was serious so I thanked 'em anyway and came on home. ...................I'm sure I'll have more questions down the road. Hopefully not "How do I get the crankshaft pulley bolt out after the heads been sheared off?" Thanks again,...Tom
Why don't you just call that same Honda dealership and ask them how much they'll charge you to remove the bolt? I agree with nasty - they'll probably charge you only $20, or so. You'll pay more than that for the special holder alone, and you'll still have to remove the bolt.
If you are going to definitely DIY, then save your money on the holder and RENT a 1"-drive electric impact wrench for a couple of hours. I believe most tool rental places will have one, but places that rent tools for heavy equipment definitely will.
With a few minutes of constant banging away with a 1" wrench, that bolt WILL loosen. You run little risk of shearing the bolt with a large impact wrench, but a considerable risk using the pulley-holder and a long breaker bar, IMO. (I hope you don't find out firsthand why they're called "breaker" bars!)
BTW, the answer to your last hypothetical question is probably - "replace the crank shaft".
First, do you think an extractor is going to give you a better chance of removing the threaded shaft than the original bolt-head did? I doubt it like heII.
Second, even if there was a chance to remove the threaded shaft of the bolt by drilling enough of a hole into it to insert an extractor, you'd probably still have to remove the crank from the engine to drill the hole.
Third, that's a hardened bolt, so drilling a hole in the end of the threaded shaft would be an extrememly difficult, if not impossible, thing to do.
Good luck, and please let us know how you get that bolt out. Reading how you did it will be a helluva lot more entertaining than watching any so-called "reality show" on the boob tube.
Below is a photo of an Ingersol Rand 1" drive 110V electric impact wrench that is typical of those rented by heavy equipment tool rental places:
They don't turn very fast, but boy they hammer!
< Message edited by Tony1M -- 7/10/2007 11:04:16 AM >
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 7/15/2007 1:37:46 AM
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rugrat
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Hey guys,...Got'er done. The 50mm holder tool from Ebay,($30) did the trick. I got a good deal on the harmonic balancer from Autozone,($62.99). Bought a 1/2 inch electric impact wrench,($71.00). Of all the socket adapters I have, I didn't have a 1/2 inch F x 3/8 M, so I got a cheap one,($2.99), and an impact set,($14.99). Both of those snapped off on day four with the impact wrench. I went ahead and got the 1/2" 19mm socket,(Lugnut set-$19.97) and two 1/2" extensions,(6"- $8.46; 12"-$9.96). What was nice about the holder was that it has an elbow in it and that runs into the fender well so you don't have to hold it. Two new belts for $9.99 and my cheap harmonic balancer comes to around $240.50. And it only took me nine days! I used a breaker bar and a cheater bar,(pipe), on top of that with a jack stand under the pivot point,(where the breaker bar and extension meet). I had plenty of leverage but tried to go easy so as not to shear anything off. When it finally gave I was sure it was a socket or something that had snapped. Once it broke free it was finger loose. Unbelievable. Oh, wait,..another $14.99 for a cheap harmonic balance puller that not only did I not need but all the bolts where too big. The 6" gear puller I already had would only grab with two of the "fingers" and when I tried to attach it the balancer came right off.
My battery died twice during this nine day stretch, so that'll be my next purchase. And now it's back to the manual so I can figure out the timing. Where the idle adjustment screw should be it's plugged and I had to up the idle with the throttle cable adjustment just to keep it from dying on my last trip out. With registration due this month I'd have to say July 2007 sucked bigtime. I don't know how much it would've cost to rent that 1" impact but I appreciate the advice Tony1M. If I had a digital camera I would have included pictures of a bent 3/8 socket, 2 brocken socket adapters, and a pair of hands with busted and burnt knuckles. Oh,...and a picture of the "S.H.I.T.",(special holding in-place tool), because it made all the difference. Thanks again guys...
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 7/16/2007 12:41:28 PM
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sir_nasty
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*ROFL* well at least now we have an industry standard name for that tool.... Glad you finally got it done those things make a huge "crack" when they brake loose... only 9 days.... I've had jobs like that in the past.... I once spent two days trying to remove a bearing from they flywheel on my 81 civic when I was doing a clutch job, I tried all sorts of stupid things that I'm not even going to get into.... Finally I said forget it and yanked the flywheel off as well (yeah I know I should have done that sooner) and realized that there was a small "lip" holding the bearing in, I flipped the flywheel over and simply pushed out the bearing as blood dripped from my busted knuckles onto the flywheel I found myself in a tyraid of inapropriate words and terminology the likes of which I didn't even know I could pronounce.... Ah cars... the fun of the frustration!
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1981 Civic Station Wagon - ROhnda (Really Old Honda)
1981 Honda CB650 Motorcylce - WHEE What More can I say?
2000 Lexus RX 300 - Oooh baby my wife let me drive it once!!
Quote: Life''s great but it''s not all beer and skittles
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 8/1/2007 3:22:45 PM
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rugrat
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Wow, ... power outage just trashed my follow-up question. I don't know if anyone's still following this thread but I'll post my question here before starting a new one. The new harmonic balancer is slipping in and out on the end of the shaft despite having used the electric impact and hand tightening the bolt another 1/2 turn. Two possibilities,..1. The crankshaft is moving in and out about a quarter inch, or 2. the new harmonic balancer is too thin to be held in place by a bolt that's already bottomed out. A shorter bolt or extra washers could potentially fix problem #2,...but that may be too easy. Anyone come across this problem before?
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 8/1/2007 3:40:13 PM
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sir_nasty
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That's a new one to me... some of the more experienced mechanics may have seen it but I'm at a loss unless they just gave you the wrong part or something...
_____________________________
1981 Civic Station Wagon - ROhnda (Really Old Honda)
1981 Honda CB650 Motorcylce - WHEE What More can I say?
2000 Lexus RX 300 - Oooh baby my wife let me drive it once!!
Quote: Life''s great but it''s not all beer and skittles
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 8/1/2007 3:59:47 PM
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rugrat
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Thanks sir_nasty for the quick response. Two days after "fixing" this I came down with a flu that was going around and so, the few times I've driven this, since then I've gotten intermittent squaking. That's common with belts being too tight or too loose and assumed that was the problem. I watched it move in and out today while squaking and you may be right. I may have to return the $62.99 harmonic balancer and get the $100 dollar one,...so I can go back to work,...so I can make more money,....so I can buy more parts,...so I can,..wait,...I said that already. I'll post again when I get this resolved and I'll be sure to mention the manufacturer if this harmonic balancer has a flaw that others should be wary of.
_____________________________
'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - 8/1/2007 4:41:00 PM
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sir_nasty
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You may be able to shim it but shims that are possibly out of balance on a crankshaft just frightens me... I'd just go to the auto parts store and compare them side by side (if they have one of each in stock) and see what the difference (if any) is.
_____________________________
1981 Civic Station Wagon - ROhnda (Really Old Honda)
1981 Honda CB650 Motorcylce - WHEE What More can I say?
2000 Lexus RX 300 - Oooh baby my wife let me drive it once!!
Quote: Life''s great but it''s not all beer and skittles
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/2/2007 10:25:21 AM
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jbeggs
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WOW! After reading these comment about harmonic balancers, I don't feel so bad after all. I have two Accords (99 and 01). They were both due for timing belts so I opted to tackle the job myself. The harmonic balancer was the worst problem I had! I did the job on the 99 model first and made the mistake of reading the Haynes Manual. It specifically states use a "chain-type" strap wrench on the pulley to hold it while breaking the crank bolt with a breaker bar. It even has a good picture of a guy doing just that. It certainly held the pulley while I stood on the breaker bar and literally bounced until it broke loose - just like the other guys said - once broken free I could spin the bolt with my hand! But the problem then was that the strap wrench CRUSHED THE BELT GROOVES IN THE PULLEY!!! DO NOT USE A STRAP WRENCH ON THE PULLEY!!!!
But wait it gets worse - I found the replacement pulley (just as good as OEM) at NAPA ($57) and installed it. Got the 99 all put back together and it runs great! But when getting the pulley off the 01, I tried a 1/2" impact as others have stated but it didn't budge. I then attempted the strap wrench again but wrapped the old alternator belt around the pulley for protection but the force needed to break the bolt loose crushed the grooves anyway!! So another $57 at NAPA and I am finished with the second one.
I agree....why would honda tighten that pulley with 180ft-lbs?
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/2/2007 12:38:28 PM
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sir_nasty
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because if that bolt comes loose your engine is toast.
_____________________________
1981 Civic Station Wagon - ROhnda (Really Old Honda)
1981 Honda CB650 Motorcylce - WHEE What More can I say?
2000 Lexus RX 300 - Oooh baby my wife let me drive it once!!
Quote: Life''s great but it''s not all beer and skittles
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/2/2007 12:59:17 PM
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Carbon91EuroR
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On the 91 accords the correct torque setting is 159 ft. lbs. also there is a small washer that is to be replaced after disassembly. It has one chamfered side to it, that side is to face the head of the bolt.
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/4/2007 2:31:04 PM
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rugrat
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Unbelievable,... I didn't like the looks of the lower timing cover once I'd gotten the harmonic balancer off. After nine days in the rain, getting the new balancer on was all I was concerned about. So BONDO on the timing cover must be there for a reason, right? Maybe to keep the harmonic balancer from scooting in and out? My new harmonic balancer is toast. According to Chilton's, from what I can tell, I may have to remove a side engine mount, alternator, power steering pump, engine wiring harness, splash sheild from below the engine, cruise control actuator, valve cover, upper timing belt cover, side engine mount support bracket, dipstick and dipstick tube, and two rear bolts from the center beam so I can slowly lower the engine for enough clearance to remove the lower timing belt cover!!??!! If that's what it takes to replace a timing cover I guess I can understand somebody slappin' a little Bondo in there and hopin' it doesn't come back to haunt them. I still think these parts should be cheaper than dirt as much work as they are to replace. And still wishin' I had the digital camera so you guys could see this. Uhmm,...doesn't it say somewhere on the Bondo can,.."Not suitable for mechanical repairs."?
_____________________________
'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/4/2007 10:12:05 PM
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Tony1M
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Was there something wrong with the crank pulley (BTW, was it OEM?) you originally removed? If so, was what was wrong with the original pulley the same thing that's wrong with the new one you just installed?
If they both failed in the same way (for presumably the same reason), something's definitely not right with how the pulley is mating to the crank.
About the bondo on the lower timing cover - it must be cracked or broken, right? Why is it broken? If there was something wrong with the pulley you removed, and now there's something wrong with the pulley you just installed, and there's also a broken lower cover, I'd be thinking that that's a bit too coincidental for comfort.
If I were you, I'd be hoping that nobody in the past "modified" the end of the crank - perhaps to install a desired new pulley.
At this point I think the best thing would be to get a new or used Honda OEM pulley, install it, and see if it stays trouble-free for awhile. If it does, thank your lucky stars and leave it on the car.
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/4/2007 11:15:43 PM
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rugrat
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Hey Tony, the original pulley/harmonic balancer had seperated and the larger pulley was slipping on the smaller inner pulley. It didn't make much noise as long as I didn't use the AC. I guess the compressor added enough of a twist that it chattered when it kicked in. When I got noise from the new pulley I assumed it was, like the old Buick, just an adjustment in the belts that was needed. Having made four or five short trips and adjusting both belts I caught the noise maker in the act. Like I said before the new pulley moved in and out about a quarter inch, or more, from the engine when it chattered. I had a job in Conroe Thursday and put about 200 miles on it without using the AC. No chatter. I didn't drive it Friday and Saturday morning I took nasty's advise and compared the old one with a new one. Very little difference. Autozone won't refund but said they'd exchange it. That's assuming they gave me the wrong part. They didn't. I can't tell from the drawings or pictures in the manual what the actual lower timing cover is supposed to look like but, to me it looks like the lower timing gear is what's exposed behind the pulley. The original timing cover was probably chewed off and it looks like the outer belt guide was left off. I definitely need a new cover and a shop manual. This car gets great gas mileage compared to the Buick but, that Buick was a lot easier to work on.
The stereo volume is uncontrollable and shifts from one speaker to another. The check engine light comes on sporadically. The speed sensor works sometimes. The brake light goes off and on even though the bulbs are good. Since replacing the balancer I've replaced the battery and a heater hose that pinholed anti-freeze onto the parking lot. The jumpered code reader blinks crank angle and speed sensor. To top it off the power steering pump is whirring now and that's probably because I tightened it up too much to stop the chatter. I'm thinking of getting a bicycle with a little more trunk space than the Honda, but we'll see. I just got this car March 29th and old schoolin' hasn't helped any.
_____________________________
'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/5/2007 12:06:43 AM
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Tony1M
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rugrat
Hey Tony, the original pulley/harmonic balancer had seperated and the larger pulley was slipping on the smaller inner pulley.
Please take a look at the photos I took of the dirver's end of my '92 Accord's engine when I did a timing belt job last year in this thread:
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/m_22119/mpage_2/tm.htm
The photos show The Bolt, the pulley, and lower cover very well.
This particular photo
indicates that the inner (closer to the engine) part of the pulley is the larger part of the pulley. I hope that this is what you meant. If it isn't, then I think we've found at least part of the problem.
But there's something else, too.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rugrat
..................... I can't tell from the drawings or pictures in the manual what the actual lower timing cover is supposed to look like but, to me it looks like the lower timing gear is what's exposed behind the pulley. The original timing cover was probably chewed off and it looks like the outer belt guide was left off. ........................
It's impossible for the outer belt guide (the raised edge of the balancer-belt pulley) to be left off. It's all one piece. I hope that the balancer belt pulley was not installed backwards.
Take a look at the photos in that thread and let us know what you think.
< Message edited by Tony1M -- 8/5/2007 12:08:15 AM >
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/5/2007 12:27:30 PM
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rugrat
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Ahhh, Tony,...thank you. That's what I needed and my search never turned up! When reading the Chilton's I'm constantly reading instructions and looking at pictures that don't apply to my model. That was the belt guide mistake. Different model.
The inner/outer thing was my fault too. The larger pulley is closer to the engine but is, and keeps, seperating from the smaller inner pulley that is furthest from the engine. When I explain to someone what has happened to the harmonic balancer I picture the balancer itself rather than it's placement. I don't know what sort of rubber or adhesive they use to press those two pulleys together but I considered driving finishing nails between the rubber and the larger pulley to keep it from spinning on the smaller pulley. I considered that when I couldn't get the bolt out and needed to move the car.
In my online parts search I came across some aluminum underdrive pulleys as cheap as $54.00. Pretty red, blue and silver. But they look to be one piece as opposed to pressed together. (Remember stupid questions are the easiest to answer.) Do they make harmonic balancers solid like that?
I jumped on the Autozone $62.99 because O'Rielley's wanted $99.00. And $120.00 for a speed sensor! Unemployed and somewhat self-employed the oddjobs I do force me to be a bargain shopper. Buying cheap always costs you in the long run. I've spent over $250 going cheap and I'm back at square one.
I'm in an apartment complex that frowns on auto repairs. I need to do that same job but, for now just need to get back to "point A to point B" status. What I don't understand is the pulley moving toward and away from the engine. I can't imagine, as tight as that bolt is, that a flimsy timing cover would play a part in keeping the pulley from moving. The hump on the back of the pulley should seat on that crankshaft timing gear, right? Which makes me think the shaft is moving!? How screwed up is that?(<--not rhetorical)
Can I replace the lower timing cover without removing all the extra? I only have two jackstands and also assume you used four to keep the car level for lowering the engine. ("Ewww,...is that a can of worms!? I think I'll open that!)
Not having AC in Houston,Texas is like going into a steambath fully clothed. I'm thinking you're in Canada, could afford, and had a garage for this job. I should be able to borrow some money and a garage and tools for the job but need the bandaid to get to the garage. I'm at 137,000 plus miles and with the speed sensor cuttin' in and out, (for who knows how long!), I'm probably long overdue for a new timing belt. I've bookmarked your thread and certainly appreciate your posting that. I'm thinking August 2007 may well surpass July's notoriaty. Thanks again for all the help,...Tom
_____________________________
'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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