RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!!
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/5/2007 5:25:46 PM
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Tony1M
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I did not even realize that the pulley was two pieces. I thought it was one piece, so I don't have a clue if aftermarket aluminum pulleys are one or two pieces.
The question that I want answered is: why did the new pulley fail?
Here's a closeup of the crank and seal:
The blue arrow points to what I believe is a "shoulder" on the crank near the crank seal. Like a stack of pancakes, the timing belt gear pulley (closest to the engine), balancer belt gear pulley, and, finally, the crank pulley "stack up" a little bit "thicker" than the distance from that shoulder to the very end of the crank shaft. That nice loose little crank pulley bolt keeps the "stack" tight against that shoulder, WITHOUT either bottoming out in the threaded hole, or touching the flat end of the crank. I might be wrong on that last part, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.
Come to think of it, the next time you get that crank pulley bolt out of there, without removing the pulley from the crank, take a look and make sure that when you push the pulley all the way onto the crank, the flat surface of the end of the crank still sits slightly inside (beneath) the outer flat surface around the hole of the pulley (the part of the pulley the bolt tightens up against). If it doesn't, that's not good.
That leads me to another question - is the crank pulley bolt the OEM Honda original? It should look identical to mine. If it isn't OEM, replace it immediately.
If the crank itself is moving back and forth within the block, that's not good. I'm not familiar enough with the bearings of the crank in this engine, but on V8s I believe there is a thrust washer or bearing that prevents longitudinal travel of the crank. You can verify whether the crank is moving in and out during operation by installing a temporary makeshift "gauge" of some sort that is firmly attached to the chasis and pokes out to very close to the pulley. That can serve as a reference for you to determine if the pulley is indeed moving in and out as the engine runs.
The lower cover plays no part in keeping anything anwhere. It's sole function is to keep the elements away from those delicate innards. Which reminds me, if your lower cover is not protecting everything under it from the weather, relace it with a used or new one. I hate to think what water and sand are doing to those tensioners.
As far as I know, it is impossible to remove the lower cover without going through that long procedure. As you said previously, maybe this is why the lower cover was damaged by a previous owner - to somehow get the cover off and avoid all of that hassle.
I have an attached garage with a nice concrete floor, but that was not always the case, so I can appreciate exactly where you're coming from and how that limits doing maintenance. It sucks. Combine that with unbearably hot weather and it's the perfect recipe for a nasty, unenjoyable job.
I only used two jack stands under the front of the car. It isn't necessary to keep the car level when slightly lowering the engine with a jack.
Good luck to you, Tom, and please keep us informed about what you do to fix your pulley problem.
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/5/2007 5:47:39 PM
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rugrat
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Aarghhh! lol,..wish mine looked like that. I will keep ya' posted as to what kind of bicycle I end up buying  . Glad to hear I can use just the two jackstands.
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/6/2007 10:04:16 AM
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Tony1M
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I just thought of something.
Because you mentioned that both the old and new pulleys "chatter",
you should definitely verify pronto that the flat end of the crank sits inside the surface of the crank pulley that the bolt tightens against.
Because it was loosened quite recently, it is almost certain that the crank pulley bolt will break free easily now (famous last words), so checking this should be relatively easy. I also think you can do it without removing, or even loosening, either of the two external belts, although it would be better to at least loosen them so that the pulley can be easily pushed as far toward the engine as it can be. The only problem you might have is getting a decent view of the end of the crank after you remove the bolt. Maybe you can see well enough if you look through that star-shaped access hole in the splash guard inside the wheel well (with the driver's side front wheel either removed or turned all the way left).
I reiterate this point for two reasons :
1. If the end of the crank pokes out slightly from the crank pulley, that means that the bolt will tighten against the flat surface of the end of the crank, rather than against the pulley. In that case, all three pulleys on the shaft will "float". They will slide on the crank shaft in and out between the shoulder of the crank and the bottom flat surface of the head of the crank pulley bolt. That movement may not be much, but it might affect the longevity of all components under the covers - particularly the belts and tensioners, I would think. This sliding movement might also cause the chattering sound.
2. You say the lower timing cover has been repaired with bondo. How, or why, was that cover damaged? Was it damaged on purpose in order to remove it without removing the upper cover? If so, why? I can't help but think that maybe one of the two pulleys underneath were replaced for some strange reason.
While you've got the bolt out, you can also verify that it looks identical to this one:
As you can see, there's a large, thick washer under the head of the bolt. The washer can rotate quite easily, but, as far as I could tell, it could not be removed from the bolt. It seems to me that the bolt must have been threaded after the washer was installed onto the bolt. I might be wrong on that last part, though.
Good luck.
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/6/2007 11:42:47 AM
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rugrat
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Thanks again Tony, you,ve "been there and done that" and it really helps to talk with someone who has. You've put in some time on this and I'm very appreciative. The "new" car is dead in the water so to speak. I put the tire back on so it's not obvious that it doesn't run while sitting in mom's carport. Her cars in a visitor's spot.
While reading the 12-in-1 Chilton's manual in the engine and overhaul section,("Wait,..uh,..the engine's in sideways, so a side motor mount would be,...?"), I came across "crankshaft endplay". Tolerance for endplay is 0.004 inches. I don't think my tape measure has that hash mark.
Short history on the car; Step-sister--->Dad--->Sister--->Me. No work history other than my sister replaced the distributor and coil and valve cover gasket before she gave it to me,($1000.00). I told her not to do it but it wouldn't start and she trusted the mechanic. Turned out the shop had changed management and before they were done they recommended a new harmonic balancer. I don't know if they quoted her a price but I'm sure it would have gone up had they been up front with her. I was sure, since they turned down the offer to repair it, that the mechanic put an extra tight crank on that bolt just for grins.
Anywho,...with about a quarter inch endplay in the crankshaft I'm going to have to regroup. I know of a few mechanics I can "disCUSS" this with and I'll be doing that today,(one drinks and the other I don't know that well). What bothers me is that if I did all that work on my car, and it ran great for awhile, I could still find myself needing a new harmonic balancer every two weeks! OUCH!
First step in replacing crankshaft; "1. Remove the engine from the vehicle and place it on a work stand." It's odd that I could get excited about doing that.("Now,..what'd I do with that engine stand,...it was here a minute ago?") I found myself looking at "pron for mechanics" late last night. Bigger and better crankshafts and such.
I'll see what a "professional" thinks about it and get back to ya'. It may be that the "endplay" I witnessed was the balancer already coming apart and it's not as serious a problem as I think it is,(whistlin' in the dark). Regardless, you've been a tremendous help. Chilton's could learn a thing or two about photos from you.
I will check the clearance like you suggested. The pulley is currently in the trunk so it won't be too much trouble. And "famous last words" was right. I had more trouble getting the bolt off this time but that's probably because I didn't use the "Liquid Wrench". The OEM balancer has the 50mm hole on the face of the smaller pulley where the Dorman pulley has the 50mm set down inside the pulley. It's only a half inch to three quarters deep and the holder tool kicks out when you start cranking on the breaker bar. Kicked out like that it slips past the wheel well and the "S.H.I.T." don't work. I put a half inch adapter in from the back side and that ran into the wheel well to keep it from turning.
Thanks again, and I'll keep ya' posted,..Tom
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/6/2007 11:49:11 AM
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sir_nasty
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*ROFL* Pron for mechanics.... I've seen my fair share of that. and yeah, tony1m has some mad mechanical photo skills, you could drop the oil pan and do some inspections to see where the play is coming from.
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1981 Civic Station Wagon - ROhnda (Really Old Honda)
1981 Honda CB650 Motorcylce - WHEE What More can I say?
2000 Lexus RX 300 - Oooh baby my wife let me drive it once!!
Quote: Life''s great but it''s not all beer and skittles
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/6/2007 12:41:48 PM
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Tony1M
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You can actually grip the end of the crank and move it in and out of the block a quarter of an inch?
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/6/2007 12:50:52 PM
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sir_nasty
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It sounds like that's what the issue is. And if that is the real issue I'm going to invest some stock in KY because you're going to need a lot of it.....
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1981 Civic Station Wagon - ROhnda (Really Old Honda)
1981 Honda CB650 Motorcylce - WHEE What More can I say?
2000 Lexus RX 300 - Oooh baby my wife let me drive it once!!
Quote: Life''s great but it''s not all beer and skittles
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/7/2007 12:01:03 AM
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rugrat
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Heh Heh,...KY,... 'cuz petroleum jelly eats up rubber? I talked to both mechanics and the practicing mechanic was sure the crankshaft was fine. He was the one I asked about the crankshaft bolt and said impacts don't always work. He said the crankshafts shimmed in and just doesn't move like that and rarely wears out over the life of the car. The other mechanic said it could be bent. He's a pessimist, though.
I'm goin' in. "Glenda" the good mechanic said I didn't have to drop the engine to get the old timing cover off and although it was tight it would come out. I'm replacing more than the cover though, so I'll be following your procedure pretty closely. I couldn't get the crankshaft to move at all by hand. The new crankshaft pulley could have been defective and the movement I saw was it already coming apart.
I've ordered a timing cover, timing belt, balancer belt, timing belt tensioner, water pump and gasket, auxiliary shaft seal, and the balancer shaft retainer. Horsepowerfreaks.com was one of the few places I could find that had everything. Although their OEM pulley was $155.00. Looks exactly like my $62.99 pulley.
I'll pick up some anti-freeze and do an oil change while I'm at it. Might get that speed sensor while my credits good, too. I've got another job lined up for tomorrow and the parts won't arrive for a few days, so any tips or extra parts ya'll can think of would be great.
I don't have much choice here. Spend $300.00 or replace the engine. I'd have to scrap it before I could afford a new engine. I'll keep an eye out and get back to ya',...Tom
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/7/2007 12:33:02 PM
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Tony1M
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rugrat
..................................Although their OEM pulley was $155.00. Looks exactly like my $62.99 pulley.
Not TOO exactly, I hope. I like to save money when I can, too, but we all know what happened with the cheaper pulley.
This is the first time in my life I've ever heard of a problem with ANY pulley, let alone a crank pulley, so I'll say something again. Because of its age, the old pulley falling apart is at least somewhat plausible, but the new pulley falling apart so quickly indicates to me that something weird is going on under your hood (of the car  ). In other words, something very much out of the ordinary is causing the failure of those pulleys, and I cannot imagine what that could be.
The other tech's proposition that the crank might be bent could indeed explain why a two-piece pulley would fall apart. (After all, something caused two pulleys to separate and it certainly wasn't bad karma.) But it would have to be very badly bent, imo, and that is very unlikely. Such a thing would cause the pulley to at first "wobble" violently and, over a short period of time, this could separate the two pieces.
As far as I can tell, the crank pulley on our 92 is as good as the day the car came off the assembly line. So, with that in mind, I suggest calling a local salvage yard and find out what they want for a salvage OEM pulley. I wouldn't be surprised if it was very cheap. It might also very well be that a much later year Accord's pulley will fit your car, and in that case you might get one that's much newer and, theoretically at least, in better condition than an older one.
If you or your tech do a complete, proper timing belt job, I would not be a bit surprised if you discover what's been causing the pulleys to fail.
BTW, if your tech tells you that the rear balance shaft gear drive is the engine's oil pump, you should search for another technician to do the job.
Good luck to you, Tom. Again, please let us know what happens. Hearing how things turn out is what makes this site so much fun.
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/7/2007 3:43:48 PM
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rugrat
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Thanks Tony, ...most of all I don't feel like I'm going into uncharted waters by myself. I liked nasty's idea of droppin' the oil pan and checking for play. When I got this car the ledge around the trunk lid, hood and sunroof were packed with moldy dirt and pine needles. Sis may have driven through a car wash on ocassion but I don't think she changed the oil very often in the year or more that she had it. Dad was an orthodontist and they don't risk hurtin' their hands. I've always had good results from using Duralube on the old vehicles so besides the Seafoam, I'll do a good motorflush and lube job while I'm gettin' dirty and bustin' knuckles.
When I had the '77 Buick I also had a backup. A 1979 Pinto, pony edition, station wagon. 4 speed manual rust bucket, "no AC, no power anything". Big difference was that it was in my name and the Buick wasn't. The "Pony" ran rough but it was mine. When dad passed away, stepmom did what I always feared she would. She took her car back. My sister got dad's last vehicle and I got sis's. Since this is in my name I let that Pinto go and basically put all my eggs in one basket. Everyone knows that's a bad idea. Volunteers of America made out pretty good, though.
Mom just retired so I have her car for parts-running. And the Dorman pulley could have been defective. Doubt it, but hopin' so. Autozone wouldn't refund anyway,...exchange only. Since I've already got the OEM 2-in-1 paperweight,...the cheap pulley will have to do. If after I do this job, and don't discover the underlying issue, and the balancer breaks again,....I'll be ready to add that "golden egg" to my one basket, (should have kept the Pinto!@#!*!!). The counterguy didn't know anything about the solid aluminum pulley either. The "underdrive" description refers to an either under, or over, size pulley and requires different size belts. A one-piece pulley would resolve the break-away problem but not the issue. In '99 I learned about the harmonic balancer/dampner/pulley with the Buick. The pressed on, weighted balancer part wasn't a pulley though, and it ate a hole in the 3 inch deep, cast aluminum timing cover to make matters worse. Ever heard of paying $250.00 plus for a timing cover that wasn't at least shiny? (<---rhetorical) I want to say it was $310.00 with tax but that was 2000 and dad paid for the repairs to "his"
car anyway.
Aarhhh,....I don't mean to be long-winded or go off topic. Parts will ship tomorrow and I'll be studying your photos and goin' over the process, in my mind, much like you did. The auxillary(front) balancer seal and retainer is one of the seals you replaced, I believe, and I'd like to do a thorough job while I'm at it. I don't want to hear,.."You went to all that trouble and didn't replace the _____!?!" Once I get in there I may see a need for new tensioner springs, but I'm hoping those can be had locally. Expect it''ll be Friday at the earliest before parts start arriving so I've got a few days to study/think about it. Thanks again for all the help and well wishes. Tom
_____________________________
'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/9/2007 7:37:04 PM
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rugrat
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Oots,... I didn't realize the tensioners were stacked and thought I'd be ordering two of the same part. I neglected to order the crank seal too but got both of those at O'rielley's today. Along with the $125 dollar speed sensor  !
I've been reading over your original post,(from the start this time) and that was an impressive engine cleaning, Tony. And I think that guy was talking about the "other" rear. You were talking about firewall rear and he was talking rt. front tire rear. A lot like the "other" inner pulley thing. Pictures are worth a thousand words, at least.
Couple of questions:
Does anyone know if the speed sensor factors into how the engine runs? ( I would think so, but...)
And, does anyone know, if this model had an anti-theft code for the stereo to work properly?
Answers to these aren't that urgent, I'm just curious. I can do some more searching for those later. Startin' to get a li'l anxious as parts could be in tomorrow. Looking forward to a smooth road trip myself.
Tom
_____________________________
'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/10/2007 11:15:42 AM
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Tony1M
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While you're waiting for parts, you might find the following threads useful (there are some very detailed illustrations, too):
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/Tensioners/m_47917/tm.htm
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/m_57579/tm.htm
Also, this recent one about tensioner springs and how the tensioners and belts do their job:
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/%2793_timing_belt_tensioners_question/m_68428/tm.htm
Take note that on the tensioner closest to the engine (timing belt tensioner), there is a provision - a threaded hole in the block - to screw in a temporary bolt to temporarily hold the timing tensioner in place, if you please. (If I remember correctly, it is located where the aqua-colored arrow points on one of the illustrations in that first link above.) It is particularly useful to install that bolt when re-assembling the springs, tensioners and belts. Without using it, it's a bit of a balancing act to get them all back together easily and correctly. Completely remove it before putting the lower cover back on.
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/11/2007 5:02:12 PM
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rugrat
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Thanks Tony,...good articles. I'm sure I would have thought something was wrong when the belts weren't "alternator tight". My Chilton's manual says to use one of the timing cover bolts temporarily to hold the timing belt tensioner in place. And I can see how easy it could have happened and how frustrating it must have been to look down and see that washer on the tensioner when you were almost done ,..... "Nooooo!"
All this information makes me realize this problems been around for some time and although I was quick to ask 'WTF!?" this is defenitely old news to you guys. You're an asset to the forum and glad you haven't gotten burnt out on the "same old new guy, different day" thing.
I actually missed FedEx this morning and they take hairdresser days off,(Sunday,Monday), so it'll be Tuesday before they re-deliver. I'm okay with that 'cuz it's gonna be hot all weekend. Actually just started raining so it'd be humid as well. I'm hopin' I don't run into the rear balancer/punch problem that other guy had. I won't be able to leave the car for long,(chained up bicycles have been disappearing lately), so a few extra days to get everything together is a good thing.
I'm also thinkin' after you tighten the adjusting nut and turn the crankshaft three teeth counter-clockwise that that puts tension on the belts and when you loosen and retighten that nut it sets the proper tension. "JimBlakes" nearly 90 degree twist in the center of the front of the timing belt is useful too. The valve cover gasket's new so I'm hoping I won't have to replace that. $250 the first go around, $230 in online parts, and with the O'Reilly's run yesterday, and the speed sensor, another $200,...wait,...how much is a new engine? Between my sister and I, we've dropped $1680 into it since March. I hope the  car gods are appeassed after this, but 16 years is a long time to be neglected. "She's" gonna want new "tennies" and struts after this, I just know it. Thanks again, every little bit helps, Tom
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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RE: Crankshaft pulley bolt - DON'T USE A STRAP WRENCH!! - 8/19/2007 10:21:02 AM
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rugrat
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Thanks dcsmith,..."I'll be here all week,..!@#?!" I started last Wednesday,(8-14), by removing alternator, waterpump and engine skirt, but TS Erin was due Thursday so I knew it'd rain for a few days. Hurricane Dean's right around the corner so I started yesterday hopin' to get this done between hurricanes. Started at 10am and quit at 8pm. Rained 5 times yesterday. Nothing visibly wrong that I could see. Stopped in here to doublecheck the tightening prodcedure for the belts.
I can't see out there in the shade very well and both flashlights I had went dead. On top of that where I need to look is right behind the wheelwell. The timing belt tensioner seems to get stuck in certain positions and getting the temp bolt in was a pain in the ,...uhm,..fingers. And, when you tighten the temporary bolt it tends to spin the arm into the full upright position.
Anyway, the covers back on, along with the alternator and PS pump. I passed on checking the valve clearance as well because of time running short. I'm about to go back out and have at it again. Fresh batteries in the flashlights and I'm packin' a lunch this time. I got a digital camera in the meantime and may include some pictures at some point,(crime scene photos, '91 Honda with chalk outline,..). And that's not bondo on the timing cover,...it's melted timing cover! The black plastic turns a whitish-gray color when melted. It broke off brittle like bondo, and my apologies to the mechanics out there. I'm relieved to find that they aren't that stupid and actually have a new appreciation for what they do. I'll keep ya'll posted, Tom
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'91 Accord EX 4cyl 2.2l w/ custom bondo timing cover,..uh,...make that melted plastic timing cover
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