Dead 99 Accord
 

Please don’t be put off by the length of this description of my problem, I wanted to provide enough information and specifics of what I’ve done to ensure any suggestions wouldn’t be over ground already covered.

I inherited a 99 Accord LX 4 cly (VTECH) from my daughter, when it failed after filling up with gas on a hot evening. She said the vehicle quit while driving with everything just died. She waited about 30 minutes and the car started and got her home. I came down the next day and picked up the vehicle and trailered home. I took the vehicle for a 20 minute test drive on a hot day with no problem and when parked the vehicle re-started. I installed new plugs, wires, cap, rotor and air filter. Took vehicle for about an hour test drive, ran like a champ, parked in a parking lot and let it sit for 20 minutes and it would not start. Left it in the parking lot for 4 hours and still wouldn’t start, ended up towing home. Here is where my odyssey begins.

I searched the internet and came across this forum and other’s offering several suggestions which I’ve followed. The most likely culprit was said to be the Main Relay, which when tested, tests fine. When the key is turned on the Check Engine light comes on for 2 seconds and goes off with a click of the relay being heard. The fuel pump can be heard. The rocker arms can be seen moving through the oil filler cap during cranking. The plug wire was pulled and a screwdriver installed shorting out to ground showing a intermittent yellow spark. Went ahead and pulled the sparkplug and performed the same test with the same intermittent yellow spark. Changed out the ignition coil and got the same result of the spark test. That brought me to the igniter or ICM, which most said was very unlikely to fail and I had the opportunity to ask a Honda/Acura mechanic, in which he said the same. He indicated the ignition switch might be the problem and gave me a switch to try, which I plugged in and got the same cranking with no start. I went back to the distributor and performed the voltage tests and test light tests recommended. The test light held to the (-) to body ground blinks during cranking indicates a bad brand new coil. The voltage tests during cranking at the negative side of the coil both connected and disconnected show about the same voltage, indicating a bad ICM igniter. If replacing the ICM would cure the problem, I don’t have any problem spending the $200 to replace; the coil if it is bad can be replaced on warranty. I’m afraid the ICM is not the problem and I will be lead down a trail of changing parts as I go, instead of identifying the problem first and repairing. HELP!

Hi New member..this looks like a question for one of our Experts..
Go to deserthonda and ask him that question..you can click on his link at the bottom of his signature and tell him your from the HAF and need help.

WheelBrokerAng :)

Dead Accord - Update
 

Thanks WheelBrokerAng for the lead to deserthonda, I wrote an email to them, haven't heard anything as of yet.

Went to the Honda Parts & Service shop yesterday afternoon and explained my problem with the ICM igniter in hand. They informed me they change quite a few of ICMs out due to lack of spark or intermittent spark. Honda said they perform the same on vehicle tests I had performed and were as confused as I was about the conflicting tests between the coil and ICM. The parts guy suggested I take the ICM to Oreillys Auto Parts and have the ICM tested. The mechanic and I both asked at the same time "They can do that?". I went to Oreillys and had the ICM tested, it took longer to find the right leads to their tester than it took to perform the test. The first test showed the ICM to be good, but three additional tests showed the ICM to be bad. The Oreillys guy said he sees that a lot and is why he does the test more than once. He thinks as soon as the unit produces heat due to current flow is why it cause the intermittent failure. I ordered the $200 ICM and already had a replacement coil headed this way. I plan on installing both tonight and you can bet I’ll be holding my breath why I turn the key.

99 Accord LX 4 cly AT - Help!
 

Well the new ICM and replacement coil did not bring the Accord to life. I pulled a plug wire and shorted to ground with the spark being yellow for about 4 revolutions and then no spark.

Does anyone out there have any suggestions? I was hoping someone would have responded by now. I didn't think I violated any posting rules that have put me in the no responce zone......

1999 Accord LX 4 clyinder VTECH AT Non-ABS

New parts - Distributor cap, rotor, coil, ICM, wires, sparkplugs, air filter.

Checked Parts - Main relay, fuel pump sound, check engine comes on and goes off, rockers move during cranking, coil & ICM voltage check, test light test on negative side of coil.

Please Help!

When I read your post, it seemed like you had your problem figured out when the ICM tested bad. That is why I (and probably others) didn't post. That's what I thought also PA :) Angelo

Where did you buy the coil and icm? If aftermarket, it is always possible that you got a bad part out of the box.

If you have the original coil, reinstall it and see if your car will start. You can have the new ICM tested at O'Reillys just to be safe.

Carefully check all 4 wires going to the ICM. It could be possible that the wiring has been damaged and had some crappy repair work.

Have you checked for any codes stored on the ECU?

There are some other tests that can be done with the test light to try to figure out what is going on. Report back, then we can proceed with some other tests to try.

First off, Thank you very much for your reply and help!

Both the coil & ICM were purchased at O'Reillys. The coil was the second one due to it testing bad using a lamp test to ground and to the negative side of the coil during cranking and the lamp blinking. I made sure to purchase Hitachi brand parts as other's had prewarned about buying cheap parts. I can pull the new ICM and have it tested to ensure its good if you think it will help in the trouble shooting.

I have not only re-installed the original coil, but one by one put the old cap, rotor, plug wires back in service with no luck.

I have visual checked the wires to the ICM and coil, but haven't done a resistance check on any due to having voltage at the coil or ICM during several of the tests performed. Last night I even started to doubt my re-installation of the wires to the ICM, which the service manual I'm using doesn't have a real good schematic showing exact placement, but I had made a drawing pror to pulling the wires the first time. I don't have that with me right now, but could provide a verbal description later, if you think I possibly screwed up the wiring.

When I first got the car and made the intial test run, I stopped at Autozone and had the codes checked, but there wasn't any and the ECU has never dropped a code in the whole time I've had my with it. I don't have a code checker, but would see if I could borrow one or something if you think it would help.

The spark test (screwdriver in plug wire shorted) performed last night after the ICM & coil installation showed a weak yellow spark for about 4 revolutions and then quit. If you reset the ignition switch and tried again, you would get the same weak spark again for 4 revolutions and once again quit.

I willing to perform any test necessary before having buy an additional part that was unnecessary. Thanks again for your help!

Update
 

As suggested I took the new ICM back to Oreillys to be tested to ensure it was good. We tested it 3 times with all tests showing the unit was good.

The wiring to the ICM & Coil is as follows:
-Yel/grn wire coming into distributor is connected to first connector on ICM.
- Blk/yel wire coming into distributor is connected to second connector on ICM and to the positive side of the coil.
- Yel/blk wire from negative side of coil is connected to third connector on ICM bent up at 45 degrees.

I plan on checking the ECU with a code reader tonight to see if it is holding any historic faults. If you have any other ideas or things to try let me know, gasoline and a match are looking more and more favorable.

Okie,,,,,,,,a couple of things,, first off sorry that took so long to reply but the e-mail you sent me,, it is the professional e-mail for our business,, sorry to say, but i do not use it to reply to forum e-mails ,, ..
As for your issue,, i know that you used non-factory parts but i doubt that parts would be bad out of the box, ( there is always that possibility ) ,,You have already done most of the diagnose needed that i would have done to solve the issue,, coil. igniter, ign switch,

http://www.techautorepairs.com/ignition.html

try the link above ,,

does car have an alarm system by any chance??

Thanks Desert for the reply!

It's funny the link you sent is the exact same information I've been following for trouble shooting. I'm going to check the codes tonight as PA had suggested and get back with that info.

I don't think it has an alarm system or at least I know the radio doesn't as many times as I've disconnected the negative from the battery.

It's got me stumped!

Well, no codes stored on the ECU. If it makes any difference the vehicle is an Ultra Low Emission. I'm going to try re-installing the new "checked" ICM and install the original coil in place of the new coil purchased. I'm at a loss, any help would be greatly appreciated.....

The saga continues...

I re-checked the ECU for any stored codes, which there weren't any.

I re-installed the tested ICM, put in the orginal coil and still only had cranking with no start.

I replaced the old coil with the new coil and still only had cranking with no start.

Pulled fuse 13 (clock) for 10 seconds to ensure the ECU was cleared and tried again with the same result.

I then decided to try something different and pulled two plugs and poured about a thimble of fuel in each clyinder, quickly re-installed the plugs and the vehicle tried to light off.

PA or Desert or anyone else that thinks they can shed a light - Do you think it is possible for the fuel pump to be operating but the filter screen be plug and not allowing fuel to flow?

If you read my original post, this problem started the first time with my daughter filling up with gas and within a mile the vehicle quit. Even though I had several successful test runs, the vehicle failed to start after a hour test in over 100 degree heat when shut off.

I would charge the battery, then try your spark test again.

You should have the battery tested at a parts store just to be sure it is in good shape.

While you are at the parts store having the battery tested, pick up a can of starting fluid. Have someone try to start the car with the gas pedal pushed down. Spray the starting fluid into the throttle body with the intake tube removed. See if the car will start and run while you spray starting fluid in there.

I have a good battery in my other vehicle, I'll try just switching them out and see if the results change. I tried some starting fluid, but it knocked so hard I was afraid of doing damage. Do you think carb or brake cleaner would be better?

My thought about the weak spark was based on as many times as having the battery disconnected, all of the operational information has been cleared from the ECU. If fuel is not getting to the engine the ECU doesn't have any reference for spark. I know I'm grasping, but damn I'm tired.

Thanks for your help and not giving up on me!

It's also possible that the fuel pump is running, filter is OK, but the injectors are not firing.

First do that thing with starting fluid. If it runs like that, then your spark is OK.

edit... now that I see your last post.
It DOES NOT need any fuel to have "reference" for the spark. Spark is fired based on sensors in the distributor, those sensors don't know or care whether there's any air or fuel in the cylinders.

The starting fluid causing the knock is of no concern?

It's not gonna run WELL with that stuff. But it shows that your spark is OK so you can concentrate your efforts on figuring out why it doesn't get fuel.

OTOH, I guess without hearing it firsthand, I don't know. Bad knocking might indicate your spark timing is strange. Or even your timing belt slipped a tooth or 2. Those seem unlikely, but you could remove the upper timing cover & check your camshaft timing.

A fuel pressure gauge would tell you if the pump & filter/screen are OK. Then that would leave injectors. Each injector has 2 wires, and one of those is the same color for all 4 injectors. That wire should be live (battery voltage) whenever the key is turned ON.

I'm headed to the barn to give it a spray. Let you know how it goes.

The vehicle did fire off, but wouldn't run without either the starter being engaged or the starting fluid being sprayed continuously into the intake with the peddle held to the floor.

You should remove the distributor cap and test for 12V to the blk/yel and the yel/blk wires with the key in the II position. Also check that the yel/grn wire has an open circuit to ground (valve cover bolt will give you a good ground).

I'm working off of a shop manual that covers several different models and the wire colors you listed are not identical to the 98-02 shop manual that I downloaded. Two of the wires should have 12V. The 3rd wire (the one controlled by the ECU, I think is the yel/grn). See if that one has voltage (maybe 10V) with the key in the II position.

The other test that I can suggest is to back-probe both the + and - connections to the coil (blk/yel and yel/blk?) with a needle. Hook your 12V test light across those pins. Try to start the car and see if the light flashes.

am i to understand that as long as you spray carb cleaner or starting fluid in the throttle body engine keeps running ?????
If so......it is NOT lack of spark but lack of fuel,.,, Hook up a fuel pressure gauge that will tell us a lot....make sure that you got power and ground at the fuel pump connector .....also,, what about the possibility that you got some bad gas???

What about the wrong gas? I wonder if your daughter somehow put diesel fuel in there? If the 99 has a fuel tank drain bolt like the 94-97s, then you can easily drain the tank.

This still doesn't explain the spark going away on your test though. If you have a spare spark plug, use that instead of the screwdriver. Just ground the threads of the spark plug to a valve cover bolt to test for spark.

This thread is getting strange, due to the spark disappearing, and the starting fluid.

The wrong gas is always possible, but I would lean more towards bad gas, since she did the typical kid thing and only put in a small dollar amount. Early on in this long drawn out process, I thought maybe even the gas gauge might be off since is showed 1/4 of a tank. I put in a couple gallons myself to ensure the vehicle had fuel. I ruled out the gas after having two successful test drives prior to the car failing.

I do the sparkplug test everytime I do the screwdriver test to ensure wire vs plug results are the same.

I don't have a fuel pressure gauge to check for fuel, but I'll see if I can get one to perform the test Desert reccommended. The ULEV engine is setup a little different than the manual I'm using for help, but I'll get it. One of the test I found, showed removing the return fuel line and measuring the fuel output prior to start. The fuel input to the injector rail looks completly different from what I have on vehicle, but again I'll get it. I checked for voltage at the fuel pump and also felt the pump run by hand while having someone put the ignition in position II.

I don't have much give up in me, so as long as you guys are willing to put up with "strange", I'm willing to keep giving it a go.

Okie////////////// if you spray carb cleaner in the throttle body does the engine run???and as long as you spray stays running ?? or it won't start at all ?? I want to understand that properly ..

You have to keep the starter engaged to keep the vehicle running. If you let off the ignition the vehicle will not stay running. So I guess it won't start at all, but you can make the spray ignite, if that makes any sense.

let me get this right.........car runs, but as soon as you let go the key it dies ????? if so, it is an ignition switch problem , the electrical part

Try starting the engine, but don't COMPLETELY release the key. Just hold the key & releaese it just enough so the starter-motor quits running. If you can get it running that way, then it's absolutely a bad ignition switch. That's semi-common in Hondas.

Jim, in one of my earlier posts I informed of having a spare ignition switch given to me, which was tried with no difference in results. Sense than, the ICM was changed, which did test bad at Oreilly's. Do you think it's worth a shot to try the spare ignition switch again? Scratch that last question, I'll try the spare. I'm to the point of whatever it takes....

Desert, sorry didn't see your comment/question in the string. The car only runs due to me spraying starter fluid in the throttle body at the same time as my wife is holding the key in the start position. If I quit spraying the car quits firing, if she lets off the key, the car quits firing. It looks like two problems lack of fuel and lack of continuous ignition. The fuel I will try and get a pressure check tonight. The ignition, I will try the spare ignition switch again as Jim suggested.

Good News!!
 

Well I had some luck tonight and got the car started. Here are the things I did.
-Couldn't find a pressure gauge and didn't want to spend $50 for a set. Pulled the regulator off the fuel rail and turned the key on and got fuel coming out of the rail. The fuel coming out of the rail didn't smell gassy. Made several on/off cycles with the regulator out and just let the fuel run out. Never did smell gassy. Put it back together and vehicle failed to start.
-Installed the spare ignition switch with no success.
-Went ahead and pulled the Main Relay and installed the spare one and used the spare ignition switch with no success.
-Reinstalled the orginal Main Relay and ignition switch.
-Pulled all sparkplugs, which were dry.
-Poured a small amount of fuel in each cylinder, re-installed plugs and tried to start. Vehicle tried to start on about the fourth time and actually ran for about 15-20 seconds. You could hear on every retry after vehicle wasn't getting fuel or wasn't getting good fuel.
-I sprayed starting fluid while the wife ran the ignition. Each try the vehicle acted a little more like it was trying to start. It finally started running with no fluid being sprayed, but wouldn't idle, so we just kept it running at high rpm until I could get everything buttoned up.
-Since it wouldn't idle, I had the wife rev up the engine enough for me to jump in the drivers seat before dying. I drove the vehicle (hard) 7 miles to the gas station. I left it running while filling the tank with non-ethanol fuel, also added a can of Heat. Ran it back home the 7 miles. Pulled in the barn and it would idle. Shut off for a couple minutes, it started, but had to work the peddle to get it going.
-Took the vehicle out for another 25 mile test running it hard with the AC full blast. It ran like a top! Pulled back in the barn with the AC running and the vehicle idled fine, shut the AC off and the vehicle idled fine. Shut the vehicle off let it sit for 10 minutes and the vehicle start without having to work the peddle. Made several re-starts with every one a success.

PA, Desert & Jim, I can't thank you enough for sticking with me on this "strange" one, as PA mentioned. I'll be interested tomorrow morning to see if it will start. My best guess is the fuel was bad. I ran out quite a bit out on the ground and it never really smelled like you would have expected for the amount drained. If any of you have any thoughts otherwise I would be very much interested in hearing them.

Sorry for the long reply, but since the thread became so long, I thought it was deserving of a detailed explanation of what was tried and what it took to finally get it started.

Thanks again!!

I'm glad that you posted a detailed explanation. It may help someone else that runs into a similar problem.

Keep us posted.

It started and ran like a top this morning! Probably going to be a little leary for a while until enough confidence is built that it's really fixed. But for now, I'm happy its got a pulse and is breathing again. Thanks!!

I went in and used that repair and diagnostic link that was put in there..it's got value..Try it folks...

WheelBrokerAng

I'll go along with the bad-gas theory. Water in the gasoline?? Gasoline should always smell like (you guessed it) gasoline. That's one of those things that you don't think about because it's not very common to get that much water from a gas station. Maybe diesel fuel ???

Keep putting in a bottle of Heet or Dry-Gas (or whatever brand) for the next few tankfuls just to get it all out.

Or maybe even think about draining the tank...