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  #1  
Old 07-11-2006, 02:09 PM
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Default 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

No AC or power anything on our car.

I had posted this on the Gen Tech forum under the heading "Appropriateness of Timing Belt Kit", but since its going to be a DIY job, I figured that maybe it was more appropriate in this forum. I've examined the car thoroughly and I believe I have a minor coolant leak from the water pump, and maybe even a minor oil leak, from some seal inside the timing covers, so I'd like to decide from whom I'm going to buy parts and do this job in the near future.

I received a reply from an eBay vendor this morning in answer to my question asking which parts in his kit were made by which manufacturer. Here's the link to the kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-H...03137865QQrdZ1

Here are the manufacturers of the various parts of the kit:
timing belt Conti
other belts Bando
water pump NPW or GMB
tensioners NSK
seals NOk
v/c gasket Ishino

I also found a Canadian eBay vendor of another kit who lists all of the manufacturers of the various parts in his kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

As you can see, there are some differences between the kits.

Which of these kits (IF either) would you recommend?

I have a few questions about Honda parts and the timing belt job:

1. What does "genuine" Honda parts mean, exactly? Does Honda actually manufacture their own parts, or do they buy from other manufacturers and put them in a Honda box with a Honda part no.? If the answer to the last part of the question is "yes", does anyone know which parts are manufactured for Honda by which companies? (Obviously, this would be good information for anyone trying to find maybe less-expensive parts for their Accord.)

2. Am I correct when I say that on the inside of the upper and lower covers there should be NO oil or coolant present WHATSOEVER, and that it should be "dry as a bone" and nice and clean in there and that the two covers are essentially "dust covers" which protect the parts inside from the outside elements?

3. I've read some information that all water-pump gaskets are not created equal and that maybe there's an ideal gasket for this job. Does anyone know who manufactures the best one? Does one have to use additional sealant when replacing the pump and, if so, what sealant is recommended?

4. In the Haynes manual's description of the timing belt replacement, there are many photographs which contain arrows, etc. which describe the job very nicely. In order to make things clearer for the reader, they have taken these photos of an engine which has been removed from the car, and, in particular, this makes more clear their description and illustration of the location and alignment of the various timing marks on both belts and engine parts.

I have to wonder how easy this is going to be, especially for the novice undertaking this job for the first time, in the cramped quarters of the wheel well and from the viewing angle of the floor.

I have a nice floor jack which has a lift height of 22" and I can increase that a bit if I place it on a couple of 3/4" sheets of plywood before starting to jack. I then put jack stands under the two front jacking points to support the car as I work. For doing work under the car, I also have a nice creeper with an adjustable head support, so I have some flexibilty in viewing, and working, angle.

The procedure states that one should put a piece of wood under the oil pan and put the floor jack under this piece of wood to support the engine. The one releases the engine from its left top mount and then lowers the engine 3 or 4 inches to allow easier removal of the lower timing cover. That's pretty straightforward for removal of the cover, but I wonder how easy it is going to be to see all of those timing marks with the body of the car potentially blocking one's angle of view of everything.

5. The rear balance shaft is locked into position before removing any belts, or even it's own pully. This means that the pulley must surely go back on in its original position when it is re-installed (if it has a key-way, that is). Good. So ............

a. What is the likelihood that the other various shafts (cam, crank, front balancer) will accidentally rotate during this maintenance - do they turn easily?

b. Because the rear balance shaft is locked into position from beginning to end, does it act as the "bench mark" or "reference" in the installation of the new belts, or are the marks on the pulleys and their corresponding marks on the engine the primary "standard", if you will?

6. Do I need to use a balance shaft seal retainer? Will I find an original part on the car, or was this an add-on by Honda to correct something?

7. Is it necessary to replace the seal on the FRONT balancer shaft, and does it have an original retainer?

8. In the kit being sold by the Canadian vendor, in addtion to the crank seal, he includes what must be the oil pump-to-engine-block seal. Is it necessary to replace this seal, as well?

a. What is the likelihood that the oil pump will also need to be replaced? (190,000 km, or 118,000 miles on vehicle)

9. How diffictult is it to replace the cam seal? Does one have to remove the cam pulley, for example, or rotate the cam to remove the seal?

10. Could someone who has done this job at home comment on any other aspect that you feel may be important to mention?

Thanks very much.
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Tony
1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything (sold in June, 2013)
2005 Lexus LS430 (sold in June, 2013)
2010 Mitsubishi Outlander XLS S-AWC, ultra-loaded
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  #2  
Old 07-12-2006, 04:30 AM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job


woooooooo>> Tony Tony Tony.... i don't know where to start ..

# 1 ,, Honda manufactres some parts, some they just stick the label on

# 2 , correct on the t-belt covers , theyar ther to protect from outside elements

# 3 use a Honda water pump, gasket is attached to it,, no need to use any sealant at all.

# 4 pretty easy to see the marks ,, what i reccomend is that you put car on top derad center # 1 , cam pulley mark ( up ) make sure it is up , get a permanent magic marker and before you remove the timing and balancer belts ,mark the position of the cam pulley, balancer shafts,

# 5 ,, once the balencer belt and timing belts are off, both balancer shaft will rotate easily,, that's why i suggest you mark them before removing the belts

# 6 ,,As for the seal retainer , if the recall has not been done you will need to install the retainer , Honda delaer sell it for around 5 dollars

# 7,, it is critical to replace the balancer shaft seal, they pop out and leak oil ,, so definatelly install a new seal and the retainer

# 8 ,, if the oil pump sral is not leaking it is your call wether you want to replace it or not,, personally if i got a new seal i would replace it,,

a,, do not worry about the oil pump, never had to replace one

# 9 ,,yes you got to remove the cam pulley to replace the seal, make sure you reposition pulley on the same place or cam timing will be off, easy to replace the seal, remove the old seal using a small screwdriver, put some grease on the inside of the new seal and evenly push it in ,, there is a special seal installer tool which i am sure you do not have ,, but see if you can get a socket big enough as the outside of the seal dimension to help you push seal in , when installing the seal, go shlightly past being flush with the head ..

# 10,, the biggest issue you might have is to loosen up the crank pulley bolt ,, they are tight,, Also,, it will make it easier to remove and install the lower t-belt cover if you remove the 2 17mm bolts for the lower frt cross member on the left side( driver side ) and just loosen up the 2 on the rt side,( passenger side ) it will make engine drop just a bit more and give you more clearance ..... ..DO NOT and i repeat DO NOT take all 4 bolts out .....

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  #3  
Old 07-12-2006, 06:35 PM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

Desert,
I can tell that you must love your work. Thanks very much for taking the time and energy to answer all of my questions and concerns.

Because you were so "right on" in your advice about those inner tie rods, I will also do everything you recommend on this job.

The day before I start the job I will take the car to Honda and have them loosen the crank bolt and free up the pulley, so that I will be able to easily remove them at home.

I assume that the components of those kits are OK with you, except for the water pump. I'll ask the Canadian eBay vendor if he'll sell me a kit without the water pump, and I'll try to find a Honda dealer who will sell the pump for less than the $97 that the local Honda dealer charges.

If I think it can be done easily, I'll also replace the oil pump seal, even if its not leaking. With my luck, if I don't, it'll surely start leaking the day after I finish the job.

I understand that you recommend changing seals and retainers on BOTH balancer shafts. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

After reading what you've said, I feel reassured. I'm now actually looking forward to doing the job.

Thanks again.
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1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything (sold in June, 2013)
2005 Lexus LS430 (sold in June, 2013)
2010 Mitsubishi Outlander XLS S-AWC, ultra-loaded
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  #4  
Old 07-12-2006, 11:57 PM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

one thing i forgot to mention which i do not do, but i think you should to make sure the rear balancer shaft does not rotate on you,,
on the back of the block, right about aboce the rear balancer shaft there is a 14mm plug, remove it, insert a thin punch or a screwdrover in there , this will line up the rear shaft and make sure it will not rotate,,of course fist of all get engine on top dead center # 1 ..
DO NOT forget to remove the punch before you rotate the engine........the punch is there till you install the balancer belt ,,

if you have any questions during the job ,, i am just a few clicks away
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  #5  
Old 07-13-2006, 02:13 AM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

Thanks for that additional information, Desert, and the offer to be just a few clicks away. I appreciate it.

It'll probably take me one, maybe two, weeks to get all the parts in my hands, so it'll be at least that long before I post either my successful completion of the job, or frenzied pleas for help.

Thanks again.
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1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything (sold in June, 2013)
2005 Lexus LS430 (sold in June, 2013)
2010 Mitsubishi Outlander XLS S-AWC, ultra-loaded
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  #6  
Old 07-13-2006, 02:28 AM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

,, Tony,,, Make sure to mark all the pulleys after you put car on top dead # 1 ..........

read this it might help..

http://www.forparts.com/ICHondaaccordtimingbelt1.04.htm

or this ...

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doity.../aa051102a.htm
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  #7  
Old 07-13-2006, 02:22 PM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

Desert,
Yes, I'll certainly make those marks. I like doing things the easy way.

Great articles - especially the first. I think its description of setting belt tension is going to be very useful, because, after all, those belts must have some "play" in their length, and this must, to a certain degree, affect timing. The tensioners must somehow keep that play in check well enough to allow good engine timing and balancing.

I assume that the number of "teeth" on the new belt must be the same as on the old one. Before reading this article, I thought it would be a good idea to count the distance in belt teeth from pulley-to-pulley reference marks that I would make. If it was 20 belt teeth distance between marks on two pulleys, I would make it the same same on the new. Sounded pretty good to me.

Every different thing I read about this job adds some little detail that will probably make the job go easier.

Of course our local Honda dealer would never allow it, but I'd just love to be a Honda tech's "go-fer" for a couple of these jobs prior to doing my own. In fact, all he'd have to do is bark some instructions and I'd turn wrench for him. He'd still have clean hands at the end of the day!

I'm retired, but if I had it all to do over again, I'd give atutomotive tech ("mechanic", we respectfully used to call them) a shot.

Thanks again.
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1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything (sold in June, 2013)
2005 Lexus LS430 (sold in June, 2013)
2010 Mitsubishi Outlander XLS S-AWC, ultra-loaded
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  #8  
Old 07-16-2006, 01:21 AM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

I've been going over this procedure and I have a couple of additional observations and questions.

1. Now that I understand how large the oil pump is, I really do not want to remove it. It both seals to the block and is part of the surface against which the oil pan seals. I guess one must remove the oil pan to remove the oil pump, and, if one is doing this as part of the timing job, this is going to be pretty difficult with the engine lowered and resting with it's oil pan on a wood block and floor jack.

Here's a photo of the front of an oil pump:
Click the image to open in full size.
and the rear of the pump:
Click the image to open in full size.

On the photo of the front, I assume the crank seal is the one being pointed to by the red, the front balance shaft seal in yellow, and the rear balancer shaft in aqua, I think.

I'm not sure exactly where the rear balance shaft seal is installed, nor am I sure, in general, what parts of the pump are submerged in oil, or dry.

1. Is the area of the oil pump under the rear balance shaft gear assembly, which (on the front of the pump) is enclosed by that oblong-shaped O-ring, dry, or wet with oil? a. If it's dry, why bother with the O-ring? b. If it's wet, does the shaft-seal of the gear assembly ever leak?

2. Where, exactly, does the rear balancer shaft seal "seat" - inside the oil pump housing opening, or inside the engine block (I hope it's the former), and is this the culprit in excessive leakage, or is it the large gear assembly O-ring?

Click the image to open in full size.
In the photos above and below, I assume that the seal being pointed to by the blue arrow (above photo) is the same as the one on the left end of the group designated as "2" below. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
Click the image to open in full size.

3. In the back view of the oil pump, have I drawn oil flow correctly?

4. Is the back of the oil pump wet or dry?

5. If that race-tracked-shaped O-ring on the back leaks a bit, wouldn't it just drip down into the oil pan?

6. If the rear balancer shaft seal is in the oil pump housing, what prevents oil from exiting its hole in the block and dripping down between the oil pump and block into the oil pan? (The same is true of the crank seal. If the seal is at the front of the oil-pump housing, what prevents leakage between the back of the pump and the block into the oil pan?)

7. What, exactly do the weep holes of the water pump drain - a leaking pump-shaft seal, or leakage in the pump-to-engine O-ring gasket?

8. Where, exactly do the water pump weep holes drain - inside or outside the timing covers? If the latter, are the weep holes visible on the outside of the engine even with the timing covers attached?

9. The front balance shaft seal retainer is installed as below:
Click the image to open in full size.
Doesn't this interfere with # 14 (the one with the red arrow) shown in the upper of the two numbered parts diagrams above?

10. Does the rear seal have, or even need, a similar seal retainer to the front?

Thanks very much.
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1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything (sold in June, 2013)
2005 Lexus LS430 (sold in June, 2013)
2010 Mitsubishi Outlander XLS S-AWC, ultra-loaded
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  #9  
Old 07-16-2006, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

Wow Tony,, you rally got everythign apart..

you are corect on the 3 seals top picture red arrow crank seal..........yeallow frt balancer shaft seal ....and acqua the rear balancer shaft seal//
you only need a retainer on the frt balancer shaft seal, that is the one that Honda had the recall on...........also when i replace those seals i do not take the pump totally out of the car llike you did , the reason being i have never had a problem with the rear seal leaking pict # 2 green arrow,,

i just pop out the crank seal, and install a new one,, remove the pulley on the frt balancer shaft seal 12 mm bolt ..and install a new seal and retainer,, remove the 12mm bolts and 12 mm nut ,remove the rear balancer shaft gear case and replace the rear balancer shaft seal the one with the acqua colored arrow on first picture

the weel hole on the pump is the shaft seal.. and it leaks out outside timing cover on the back of the block.. if you look at pump from under neath you can see the weep hole ..
the shafts are held inside the block
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:58 PM
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Default RE: 92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job

Desert, I truly wish that was my pump in that photo, but it's a photo I downloaded from the internet just so that I could educate myself further.

I don't want ANY surprises when I do this job.

Good about that rear seal - no way do I want to remove the pump. But if that rear balance shaft seal is doing what it's supposed to be doing, why is that large O-ring installed under that rear balance shaft gear assembly that drives it - added insurance?

I guess any oil coming out of the block (behind the pump) around those three shafts, just drains down between the rear of the oil pump and the block, and then into the oil pan - part of the normal lubrication of the engine.

To make the job go a bit easier and cleaner, and to get intimately familiar with the timing-end of the egnine, I detailed the entire engine compartment yesterday. It took me about three hours using various cleaners and Q-tips, but it looks like a new car under there now. Even my wife was impressed. After that, I went over the steps in the procedure a couple of times.

I noticed that inside the driver's side wheel well there's a star-shaped access hole provided in the plastic splash shield. I poked my finger through there while looking in the engine compartment and, sure enough, it aligns perfectly with the crank bolt, which is just a couple of inches away from it, so this must be why the access hole is there - so that the crank can be rotated with a wrench for whatever reason - a valve adjustment, for example. Since removal of the splash shield is one of the first steps of the timing job, I'll remove it prior to taking the car to Honda to loosen the crank bolt. They should then have enough room to put their big Honda "crank-pulley-holder" on there and use an air impact wrench to loosen it, so, hopefully it will be easy and quick and cheap for them to do it.

On the subject of the weep holes in the water pump - after parking the car in the garage for say an hour after the engine is turned off, a tiny spot of coolant develops on the garage floor right under the driver's side, rear-most corner of the oil pan. When I get under the car, I can see the last drop of coolant hanging from that corner of the oil pan. None of the coolant hoses are leaking, so I'll get under the car today and check to see if I can see those water pump weep holes and if there are any traces of coolant leaking out of them down the rear of the block.

Desert, you previously mentioned removing the two bolts from driver's end of the beam, and just loosening the two at the passenger end - this, in order to lower the engine a bit more for easier access to the timing an balancer belt area. I assume you mean the beam that the front motor mount is attached to at the front-most part of the engine compartment. Please tell me if I'm wrong on this.
Click the image to open in full size.

Thanks again, Desert.
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1992 Accord LX, 4AT, 4 dr, no AC, no power anything (sold in June, 2013)
2005 Lexus LS430 (sold in June, 2013)
2010 Mitsubishi Outlander XLS S-AWC, ultra-loaded
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Old 07-16-2006, 05:58 PM
 
 
 
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