92 Accord 4 dr LX 4AT Timing belt job
#71
07-13-2013, 04:32 PM
Another quick question for the forum to help another member, because my memory of the job is not perfect. When the bolt that holds the balance belt tensioner is installed and tightened (the bolt that the pink arrow on the drawing in post 33 is pointing to), does/should that prevent the tensioner from pivoting freely, or is there a "shoulder" that the tensioner pivots on, again, even after the bolt is tightened?
Thanks again Tony for providing me the "off-forum" help dealing with the tensioner business (we've been shooting some emails back and forth). I've discovered that the answer should most most likely no, that having that bolt tightened should not prevent the tensioner from pivoting freely. That is the case, now that I'm fairly certain I've got that business on right and have double-checked for pivot.
#72
10-30-2013, 09:06 PM
Thanks to Tony1M for this write up. It was very helpful
Post # 33 answered my ? about temporary bolt in TB tensioner when assembling.
Answer to post # 40 my manual says 159 Ft Lbs for F22A crank bolt.
Any one know how you are expected to get engine to stand still while applying 159 lbs torque to crank bolt?
Post # 33 answered my ? about temporary bolt in TB tensioner when assembling.
Answer to post # 40 my manual says 159 Ft Lbs for F22A crank bolt.
Any one know how you are expected to get engine to stand still while applying 159 lbs torque to crank bolt?
#73
10-30-2013, 10:14 PM
There is a crankshaft pulley restraint tool widely available that enables restraint and through access to turn the bolt. See following amazon link for typical tool:
Note, turning the bolt requires generating 500-700 ft-lbs of torque. This can be difficult to manage w/ breaker bar. A cheater pipe extension is a must. Even so you may fail a cheap breaker bar (HF!, ebay, et al).
good luck
Note, turning the bolt requires generating 500-700 ft-lbs of torque. This can be difficult to manage w/ breaker bar. A cheater pipe extension is a must. Even so you may fail a cheap breaker bar (HF!, ebay, et al).
good luck
#75
10-31-2013, 06:16 PM
Another quick question for the forum to help another member, because my memory of the job is not perfect.
When the bolt that holds the balance belt tensioner is installed and tightened (the bolt that the pink arrow on the drawing in post 33 is pointing to), does/should that prevent the tensioner from pivoting freely, or is there a "shoulder" that the tensioner pivots on, again, even after the bolt is tightened?
Thanks.
When the bolt that holds the balance belt tensioner is installed and tightened (the bolt that the pink arrow on the drawing in post 33 is pointing to), does/should that prevent the tensioner from pivoting freely, or is there a "shoulder" that the tensioner pivots on, again, even after the bolt is tightened?
Thanks.
Last edited by Geonerd; 10-31-2013 at 06:46 PM.
#76
10-31-2013, 06:37 PM
One more thing to change, or at least inspect, "While you're in there" are the two belt tensioner pulleys. From what I've read, they last about 200,000 miles, or three belt change intervals. Most folks find the belt change procedure somewhat daunting, and those tensioner wheels, springs and levers all but scream, "Don't touch unless you know what you're doing!" For that reason (sheer intimidation) I didn't change them when I had a perfect opportunity.
A few months after I did the belts (a few pages up in the thread) I noticed an intermittent 'dry bearing' noise coming from the front left of the car. This usually occured when starting the car, and on decreasing RPM as the car was warming up. Once good and hot, the noise was much more rare. At first I though "Alternator!," but removing the belt and spinning the drive pulley didn't produce the typical rattle-of-death sound we all know and love. I went ahead and changed the alternator anyway, but the noise persisted.
Removed the AC pump next (the system leaks like a sieve, so no biggie.) The noise persisted!
Over the next year the noise slowly became more frequent, but was still too intermittent to specifically troubleshoot. In my mind, I pictured all sorts of terrible things going on, and eventually decided I'd better check the tensioners....
Notes: No real need to remove the alternator. That bottom bolt is a bugger anyway...
The balance tensioner can be fairly easily removed w/o disturbing the various belts. Use a zip-tie to bind the belt to the drive pulley, maintaining tension on the balance belt while you fiddle with the tensioner.
Getting to the cam belt tensioner DOES require the complete removal of the balance belt, and partial removal of the cam belt.
My balance tensioner bearings were very nearly dry, spinning a little too freely, and with a slight metallic whirring noise. I had little trouble popping out the two grease seals (be careful!) and was able to clean and re-pack the bearing. When replacing the seals, be gentle and, when done, run a thumbnail along the inner edge to make sure all the seal edge is pressed into the groove on the spinning shaft.
The cam tensioner bearing is harder to work on, and I had trouble fishing out the seal without pretzeling it to some degree. The back-side seal looks impossible, so I just left it alone. After cleaning and greasing the bearing (it too was nearly dry, but I don't think it was squealing), I managed to coerce the seal into place. It's a bit worse for wear, but the inside edge is flat enough to engage the groove w/o going too high or low on the shaft.
Everything going back together now. I sure hope the issue is resolved!
A few months after I did the belts (a few pages up in the thread) I noticed an intermittent 'dry bearing' noise coming from the front left of the car. This usually occured when starting the car, and on decreasing RPM as the car was warming up. Once good and hot, the noise was much more rare. At first I though "Alternator!," but removing the belt and spinning the drive pulley didn't produce the typical rattle-of-death sound we all know and love. I went ahead and changed the alternator anyway, but the noise persisted.
Removed the AC pump next (the system leaks like a sieve, so no biggie.) The noise persisted!
Over the next year the noise slowly became more frequent, but was still too intermittent to specifically troubleshoot. In my mind, I pictured all sorts of terrible things going on, and eventually decided I'd better check the tensioners....
Notes: No real need to remove the alternator. That bottom bolt is a bugger anyway...
The balance tensioner can be fairly easily removed w/o disturbing the various belts. Use a zip-tie to bind the belt to the drive pulley, maintaining tension on the balance belt while you fiddle with the tensioner.
Getting to the cam belt tensioner DOES require the complete removal of the balance belt, and partial removal of the cam belt.
My balance tensioner bearings were very nearly dry, spinning a little too freely, and with a slight metallic whirring noise. I had little trouble popping out the two grease seals (be careful!) and was able to clean and re-pack the bearing. When replacing the seals, be gentle and, when done, run a thumbnail along the inner edge to make sure all the seal edge is pressed into the groove on the spinning shaft.
The cam tensioner bearing is harder to work on, and I had trouble fishing out the seal without pretzeling it to some degree. The back-side seal looks impossible, so I just left it alone. After cleaning and greasing the bearing (it too was nearly dry, but I don't think it was squealing), I managed to coerce the seal into place. It's a bit worse for wear, but the inside edge is flat enough to engage the groove w/o going too high or low on the shaft.
Everything going back together now. I sure hope the issue is resolved!
Last edited by Geonerd; 10-31-2013 at 06:42 PM.
#77
11-02-2013, 10:08 PM
Re-packing the tensioner wheels fixed the noise!
Trouble is, I had to do the job twice!
BEWARE the markings on the rear balance pulley! THEY LIE!
NOTE!
The rear balance shaft is not driven directly by the pulley! There is a 3:4 gear ratio thrown into the mix. Therefore, the various markings on the rear pulley do not indicate actual balanace shaft orientation! The markings are not to be trusted!
The only correct way is to use the service plug (Yea, like the INSTRUCTIONS suggest!
) and insert an appropriate hex wrench or similar. As you're fiddling with the wrench, trying to get it to go through the shaft, you'll notice that each 'go' position produces a different pulley orientation, each one offset by 270 degrees from the last. This threw me for a loop that lasted some time, until I finally engaged my pea brain. The observation that the two balance pulleys are not the same size offered a clue. "Something's up" I thought! A quick search showed that a gearset was embedded in the pulley housing. If you randomly spin the rear pulley (I don't mean to bump it, but did...), then attempt to set the timing using either the dimple on the face, or V notch on the flange, you will have only a 25% chance of getting it right!
Needless to say, I was a lazy *** the first time round and I managed to get the balance shaft out of whack. After assembly, I did have enough sense to hand crank the engine over to check for some manner of internal interference. None was felt, and I went on to fire up the engine. Immediate bone-rattling vibration was my reward!
Fixed the timing issue today (I'm getting this down to about 2.5 hours for the whole teardown and rebuild) and all is well.
Trouble is, I had to do the job twice!
BEWARE the markings on the rear balance pulley! THEY LIE!
NOTE!
The rear balance shaft is not driven directly by the pulley! There is a 3:4 gear ratio thrown into the mix. Therefore, the various markings on the rear pulley do not indicate actual balanace shaft orientation! The markings are not to be trusted!
The only correct way is to use the service plug (Yea, like the INSTRUCTIONS suggest!
) and insert an appropriate hex wrench or similar. As you're fiddling with the wrench, trying to get it to go through the shaft, you'll notice that each 'go' position produces a different pulley orientation, each one offset by 270 degrees from the last. This threw me for a loop that lasted some time, until I finally engaged my pea brain. The observation that the two balance pulleys are not the same size offered a clue. "Something's up" I thought! A quick search showed that a gearset was embedded in the pulley housing. If you randomly spin the rear pulley (I don't mean to bump it, but did...), then attempt to set the timing using either the dimple on the face, or V notch on the flange, you will have only a 25% chance of getting it right!Needless to say, I was a lazy *** the first time round and I managed to get the balance shaft out of whack. After assembly, I did have enough sense to hand crank the engine over to check for some manner of internal interference. None was felt, and I went on to fire up the engine. Immediate bone-rattling vibration was my reward!
Fixed the timing issue today (I'm getting this down to about 2.5 hours for the whole teardown and rebuild) and all is well.
#78
11-14-2013, 11:04 AM
Too bad for you that I or someone else who's done this job did not add to this thread a link to the following recent thread that discussed in great, belaboured, painful detail the design of the rear balance shaft gear case and the confusion those ridiculous marks cause:
https://www.hondaaccordforum.com/for...-accord-55793/
And from that thread, I think this post would be helpful to a person who is about to undertake this job for the first time,
https://www.hondaaccordforum.com/for...-accord-55793/
And from that thread, I think this post would be helpful to a person who is about to undertake this job for the first time,
I've been going back and forth with sgull on this one via email, but I think it's now appropriate to continue in the forum, where we who have done this job can expand on each others comments.
Because of the gear case (whose internal gear has 32 teeth, while the gear on the balance shaft has 24 teeth) the balance shaft rotates 33% faster than the gear case sprocket.
Put another way, to go around once, the balance shaft gear must "move" 24 teeth.
How much has the internal gear case gear turned when the balance gear has moved 24 teeth?
24 teeth per rotation of the balance shaft sprocket divided by 32 teeth per rotation of the gear case sprocket = 0.75 of one rotation of the gear case sprocket.
When the the gear case sprocket has rotated exactly THREE times, the balance shaft has rotated exactly FOUR times.
Therefore, IF, and I do mean IF, the rod is certainly in the hole in the balance shaft when any mark on the gear-case sprocket is at "12 o'clock", the next time the balance shaft's hole will be in alignment with the access hole (rotating the gear case sprocket clockwise) will be when that mark has moved only 75% of the way from 12 o'clock noon to 12 o'clock midnight (in other words, only 75% of one rotation).
0.75 x 12 hours = 9 hours
So, if the rod is actually in the balance shaft's hole when a mark on the gear case sprocket is at 12 o'clock, the handle should go into the hole again when that sprocket's mark is rotated clockwise LESS THAN ONE COMPLETE TURN to 9 o'clock.
Once again, the gear case sprocket mark turns LESS than one complete rotation, but the hole in the shaft HAS rotated one complete rotation to exactly where it was when the rod was last inserted.
So the rod can go into the hole when a reference mark on the gear case sprocket is at 12 o'clock and also at 9 o'clock -- up to this point "in time", two clock positions.
Now, to find the shaft hole yet again, continue to rotate the gear case sprocket until its reference mark completes its first rotation at 12 o'clock. Now the sprocket-mark's SECOND rotation begins and the question to be answered is: during the SECOND rotation, when the mark is at what clock position will the rod go into the balance shaft's hole again? The answer is 6 o'clock. Why? Because the rod last entered the hole at 9 o'clock on the FIRST rotation and we know that the shaft hole aligns with the access hole at in interval 9 hours. Therefore, 9 o'clock in the FIRST ROTATION plus another 9 hours is 6 o'clock in the SECOND rotation.
So now we know that there are THREE positions (12 o'clock, 9 o'clock in the first rotation, and 6 o'clock in the second rotation) that the mark on the gear case sprocket will be located when the balance shaft hole will be in alignment with the access hole and the rod can be inserted.
Continuing the process, when does the hole get into proper alignment again? 6 o'clock plus 9 hours is 3 o'clock into the THIRD rotation of the gear case sprocket reference mark.
And, finally, 3 o'clock in the THIRD rotation plus 9 hours is 12 o'clock -- the END of the third rotation of the gear case sprocket mark. This is also the end of the FOURTH rotation of the balance shaft's 24-tooth gear.
To sum up, if a rod is indeed in the balance shaft's hole, AND a mark is then placed on a gear case tooth that is at the 12 o'clock position, the rod WILL go into the balance shaft's hole again when that same reference mark is rotated clockwise so that that reference mark is at 9 o'clock during the first rotation, 6 o'clock during the second rotation, 3 o'clock during the third rotation and, finally, 12 o'clock at the beginning of the fourth rotation.
Because of the gear case (whose internal gear has 32 teeth, while the gear on the balance shaft has 24 teeth) the balance shaft rotates 33% faster than the gear case sprocket.
Put another way, to go around once, the balance shaft gear must "move" 24 teeth.
How much has the internal gear case gear turned when the balance gear has moved 24 teeth?
24 teeth per rotation of the balance shaft sprocket divided by 32 teeth per rotation of the gear case sprocket = 0.75 of one rotation of the gear case sprocket.
When the the gear case sprocket has rotated exactly THREE times, the balance shaft has rotated exactly FOUR times.
Therefore, IF, and I do mean IF, the rod is certainly in the hole in the balance shaft when any mark on the gear-case sprocket is at "12 o'clock", the next time the balance shaft's hole will be in alignment with the access hole (rotating the gear case sprocket clockwise) will be when that mark has moved only 75% of the way from 12 o'clock noon to 12 o'clock midnight (in other words, only 75% of one rotation).
0.75 x 12 hours = 9 hours
So, if the rod is actually in the balance shaft's hole when a mark on the gear case sprocket is at 12 o'clock, the handle should go into the hole again when that sprocket's mark is rotated clockwise LESS THAN ONE COMPLETE TURN to 9 o'clock.
Once again, the gear case sprocket mark turns LESS than one complete rotation, but the hole in the shaft HAS rotated one complete rotation to exactly where it was when the rod was last inserted.
So the rod can go into the hole when a reference mark on the gear case sprocket is at 12 o'clock and also at 9 o'clock -- up to this point "in time", two clock positions.
Now, to find the shaft hole yet again, continue to rotate the gear case sprocket until its reference mark completes its first rotation at 12 o'clock. Now the sprocket-mark's SECOND rotation begins and the question to be answered is: during the SECOND rotation, when the mark is at what clock position will the rod go into the balance shaft's hole again? The answer is 6 o'clock. Why? Because the rod last entered the hole at 9 o'clock on the FIRST rotation and we know that the shaft hole aligns with the access hole at in interval 9 hours. Therefore, 9 o'clock in the FIRST ROTATION plus another 9 hours is 6 o'clock in the SECOND rotation.
So now we know that there are THREE positions (12 o'clock, 9 o'clock in the first rotation, and 6 o'clock in the second rotation) that the mark on the gear case sprocket will be located when the balance shaft hole will be in alignment with the access hole and the rod can be inserted.
Continuing the process, when does the hole get into proper alignment again? 6 o'clock plus 9 hours is 3 o'clock into the THIRD rotation of the gear case sprocket reference mark.
And, finally, 3 o'clock in the THIRD rotation plus 9 hours is 12 o'clock -- the END of the third rotation of the gear case sprocket mark. This is also the end of the FOURTH rotation of the balance shaft's 24-tooth gear.
To sum up, if a rod is indeed in the balance shaft's hole, AND a mark is then placed on a gear case tooth that is at the 12 o'clock position, the rod WILL go into the balance shaft's hole again when that same reference mark is rotated clockwise so that that reference mark is at 9 o'clock during the first rotation, 6 o'clock during the second rotation, 3 o'clock during the third rotation and, finally, 12 o'clock at the beginning of the fourth rotation.
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danielwebb
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