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is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
or is it better to have both of them about the same?
im wondering this cause the civic SI has 197 hp but the torque is at 139 the S2000 is like that too so is this a good thing or bad? |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
its better to have both, but theres a reason why theres the option of stroking the engine. There isnt always the option of having high torque though.
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
hondas... high HP **POOPY** torque... cept mine its sexy :) 160/161 i think its actualy the only honda engine to have more torque than HP anyway.. hondas suck at making torque cuz of there size and because of Vtech... they are almost pure economy untill u hit that Vtech then the power comes... and if u have ever read a dyno chart all the torque comes WAY before vtech hits so bam no torque... and torque in a drag is sooo much more important then HP Torque is the ability to obtain speed... HP is the ability to sustain speed... basicly what that equates to is that torque put u back in ur seat and HP makes ur seat go 200 MpH
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
torque is very important. legionofone explained it quite nicely.
The reason honda motors can get away without loads of torque (including the swift S2000) is because of their weight. But obviously, more toque will make for a quicker car. When considering toque, one must also note where the torque is made in the power band as well. An engine that makes more torque sooner will of course accelerate quicker. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
without torque you won't get anywhere that's obvious. legionofone i got 150 hp and 152 lbs of torque, so there's another engine with more torque than horsepower. now if you want lots of torque as well as horsepower buy a jeep grand cherokee with a v8. the guys in this forum can soup up their 4 bangers pretty well from what i have read.
thunder x i would suggest if you have a 4 banger, and you want to soup it up, these guys can help you out a lot! a turbo might not be a bad idea, but i just like something that lasts a long time. i am sure honda will develop some engines in the near future with more torque, but there are so many aftermarket people that know how to really make them fly that i think honda doesn't want to develop an engine that can fly! anyways, i know this is long and boring. but, good luck! |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
HORSEPOWER!!
But you can't have one without the other. Horsepower is simply torque x RPM. (With appropriate conversion factors.) Anyone who thinks engineers are dumb geeks can stop reading right now. If you say torque is the only thing that's important, I say BS. I can make 1200 lbf*ft of torque with my bare hands. All I need is a really long handle on a wrench. But that can't move the car very well. That's because I can't make that torque at anything more than maybe 1 rpm. So what you really need is the ability to make that torque at SOME REASONABLE RPM. So that's what horsepower is all about. I should say that's what POWER is all about, whether it's HP or KW or ergs per second or whatever... Torque without RPM is like that simple jr.high science homework question about how much work you do if you push with all your strength against the wall of a building. The answer... NONE! Because the building doesn't move (at least not enough to matter). People talk about the difference between torque & power. But what they REALLY talk about is whether the engine makes good power at low RPM or at high RPM. A big ole V-8 makes it's power at low RPM, so when you do the math & plot torque & power, the peak torque has a larger number than the peak power. A Honda makes its power at high RPM, so the peak power is a larger number. I don't want to pick a fight with legionofone, because he's got some good points. But if he would put those statements into proper engineering context, he's saying about the same thing. I'll have to put some thoughts together & write something up. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
exactly. If the motor makes more torque down low, then acceleration off the line will be improved. It is important to look at where the torque is actually being made than just the number.
Honda does make some motors that fly, they just keep them in F1 cars. But their motors have plenty of over design to make some big numbers in the right hands. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: JimBlake HORSEPOWER!! But you can't have one without the other. Horsepower is simply torque x RPM. (With appropriate conversion factors.) Anyone who thinks engineers are dumb geeks can stop reading right now. If you say torque is the only thing that's important, I say BS. I can make 1200 lbf*ft of torque with my bare hands. All I need is a really long handle on a wrench. But that can't move the car very well. That's because I can't make that torque at anything more than maybe 1 rpm. So what you really need is the ability to make that torque at SOME REASONABLE RPM. So that's what horsepower is all about. I should say that's what POWER is all about, whether it's HP or KW or ergs per second or whatever... Torque without RPM is like that simple jr.high science homework question about how much work you do if you push with all your strength against the wall of a building. The answer... NONE! Because the building doesn't move (at least not enough to matter). People talk about the difference between torque & power. But what they REALLY talk about is whether the engine makes good power at low RPM or at high RPM. A big ole V-8 makes it's power at low RPM, so when you do the math & plot torque & power, the peak torque has a larger number than the peak power. A Honda makes its power at high RPM, so the peak power is a larger number. I don't want to pick a fight with legionofone, because he's got some good points. But if he would put those statements into proper engineering context, he's saying about the same thing. I'll have to put some thoughts together & write something up. co sign |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
Torques more important!!! Without torque you cant figure out how much horsepower you have.
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
I think it would depend on the application. For instance, if you are rock crawling a jeep- torque is more important. In a high RPM engine like the S2000- horsepower is more important.
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
Another way to think of it is your typical diesel engine makes tons of torque but not enough horspower to match. And we all know what a stock diesel does at the track. So like others said torque gets you out of the hole while horsepower keeps you going.
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: Chiovnidca Torques more important!!! Without torque you cant figure out how much horsepower you have. ORIGINAL: RTexasF I think it would depend on the application. For instance, if you are rock crawling a jeep- torque is more important. In a high RPM engine like the S2000- horsepower is more important. But theoretically, with enough reduction gearing, you can do either. It's just no convenient to have the kind of gearing that puts you at 4000rpm when you're rock-crawling. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
well technicaly HP and torque have very little to do with eachother other than the fact that HP is a calculation of torque torque * (RPM / 5252) true hp is never NEVER measured only calculated and is never truely correct on a dyno :) cuz of sooo many factors
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
I find it odd that everyone isnt saying both are important, cause what good is a car with 500hp and 120ft/lbs of torque? Yeah so what if you can get up to 200mph if you get to it in 5 minutes. Ideally you want about a 1:1 hp/torq Its just you dont want so much torque that your tires always spin out. When you think about it, your car really isnt going to its potential if your wheels are still spinning out in 3rd gear.
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
hondas have difficulty with low end torque due mostly to the fact that they are 4 valve engines. a 2 valve engine will of the same displacement will generally have MORE torque at low rpm but make LESS high end power.
J30a is the exception to this rule since it is lacking the 2nd statge of a 3 stage vtec system |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
J30a is also an exception cause its a v6 ^_-
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: marbro I find it odd that everyone isnt saying both are important, cause what good is a car with 500hp and 120ft/lbs of torque? Yeah so what if you can get up to 200mph if you get to it in 5 minutes. Ideally you want about a 1:1 hp/torq Its just you dont want so much torque that your tires always spin out. When you think about it, your car really isnt going to its potential if your wheels are still spinning out in 3rd gear. Having 'more' torque or 'more' HP doesn't really mean anything, since they're not the same quantity. And the definition of the units is sorta arbitrary. If we were talking in KW & N*M, this wouldn't be an issue. Or why don't we give power in ft*lb/sec? My Accord has 82,500 ft*lb/sec of power!! |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
IF you take a look at two of the fastest production cars available, the Buggati Vyron and the Hennessey Viper, each has a very flat and massive torque curve, this allows theses cars to reach instane speeds as the torque curve does not fall off until you get way up into the RPM range......
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
why is this even around dident i explain enough for everyone? both matter equaly without one the other is useless... end of story...
and yes gearing matters because when u gear something U INCREASE ITS TORQUE! if u dynoed a car in 1st gear... it would probably flatline any dyno... 400-600 Ft pounds is easily made by ur engine in first gear... 3rd gear is were u dyno ur car... 3rd gear is were it all matters... trust me i work with dynos... im a student at wyotech ;) |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
you might want to study some more.........
having a narrow torque band is useless You ultimate goal is to have a broad flat torque band that covers as MUCH OF THE RPM RANGE as possible. Since HP is a direct relation to RPM and Torque. IF your torque was 100% flat then your HP would raise linearly with RPM. and gearing does NOT give you more torque, it allows you to make the MOST efficient USE of what torque YOU ALREADY have. The trade off is the speed at which you can drive forward at. The only time you actually get more torque that what the engine has is when the car is equipped with an automatic transmission and that is 100% due to the multiplication given to you by the torque converter when the car first starts off. (this is the reason why autos are FASTER off of the line than the same car with a MANUAL) |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: YeuEmMaiMai (this is the reason why autos are FASTER off of the line than the same car with a MANUAL) |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
pl;z plz plz dont post in this again... u have no weight anymore... the TORQUE CONVERTER is mearly a fluid clutch... it in no way multiplies or enhances torque... it actualy destroys torque because instead of a clutch which is solid on solid a torque converter is a liquid turbine that slips 100% while at a stop allowing ur engine to turn while ur wheels dont... when u hit it it creates a vortex with its fins inside the liquid that is transfered to the other side of the converter and then runs threw the automatic tranny... this relationship actualy creates a HUGE HUGE loss in power because instead of the clutch (direct connection) u have a weak liquid... pushing ur car... and if u wanna come back with well why do drag cars use automatics its because they run bracket racing and thats about consistancy not and i make this very clear NOT about top speed or lowest time... a geo metro that runs 50s could dominate in bracket racing because with a good driver it would run exactly the same run over and over and over... now is there any more reasons u think that a auto is better? and if u say anything about the hennasy viper automatic i will stab u in the eye!
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
you really think you know something don't you? I really hate it when people have no idea what they are talking about and try to tell me i am stupid......
Here read this and then come back http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter3.htm "In addition to the very important job of allowing your car come to a complete stop without stalling the engine, the torque converter actually gives your car more torque when you accelerate out of a stop. Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission" you are so full of it you stink........ I deal in facts not stupidity........ |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
well... u find me a I4 accord auto to come race me and he wins... then u can laugh at me :)
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: YeuEmMaiMai "In addition to the very important job of allowing your car come to a complete stop without stalling the engine, the torque converter actually gives your car more torque when you accelerate out of a stop. Modern torque converters can multiply the torque of the engine by two to three times. This effect only happens when the engine is turning much faster than the transmission" The advantage of a torque converter only comes in the unsteady-state operation right off a standing start. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
yuppers, ultimately there is some energy loss because the torque converter doesnt create the same physical connection that the manual trans does. But as a side note, the advancements in automatics has been very significant so that problem is all that much smaller with newer cars. So in the end its left to the actual gearing of the transmission vs it being the difference between an auto and a manual
As a future note, a person who claims to have faith defeats themselves when they say they only deal with fact, because faith is a result of the absense of factual truth. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
that is why I limited my comments to a specific situation where it is applicable. There is energy loos with an auto but it does not come into play during launch because of the advantages you get when you launch. Once the the converter locks up, then the losses due to the converter are negated since there is a direct coupling just like in a manual trans.
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: As a future note, a person who claims to have faith defeats themselves when they say they only deal with fact, because faith is a result of the absense of factual truth. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
And this response required a second post?
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
u might get a small temporary increase in torque... to the point of moving ur car but thats it... ur launch will be much slower and MUCH weaker then any manual... its a proven fact but whatever
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
care to vack that up with some facts instead of just rambling on? I have provided my facts......
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: YeuEmMaiMai care to vack that up with some facts instead of just rambling on? I have provided my facts...... |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
you can do the same exact thing with an auto. It's called stall speed and you can have it set to anything you want at the time you set up and install your torque converter. It is not uncommon for racing ones to be set to 5K or higher.
Another fact. Automatics can outshift a good or lower stick driver anyday. The automatic is far more consisitant and that is why they are making a strong comeback in drag racing.... |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
Like i said, the technology behind the auto's have improved greatly, if you put an early 90's auto against an 2000 auto the 2000 will win because the technology behind the mechanical design and electronics is much better, I have a 98 and it shifts through gears as fast a person whos speed shifting. Then you have a high stall torque converter which it get you more jump off the line, even though the car becomes worthless for daily driving.
Legion, heres my question...... have you ever driven a 350z auto? I can tell you right now you will never be able to shift gears as quickly and smoothly as that auto does, and you definetly wont have the exact same shift consistency. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
well gimme a nismo setup with a short shifter and a act stage 3 racing clutch and ur on... but yeh automatics just mean perfect shifts... but they also dont leave any room for kicking the clutch... double clutching... (thats when u hold ur foot to the floor durring a shift it lets ur engine rev all the way and then u RE launch almost giving u a considerable speed boost)... and u definately loose power... o and control... (unless u have a ghey autostick then i guess u dont loose as much control) but the consistancy thing is why they are being used in drag racing... top fuel dragsters still run good old manuals... 2 speed manuals at that... u should see the fused clutches they have to pull out of the trannys after every run... its sick... u have to the smell of every fluid or sealant burning to work with those engines :) thats why im studying to build Rails :) Chassis fab and high performance baby :)
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
ORIGINAL: YeuEmMaiMai you can do the same exact thing with an auto. It's called stall speed and you can have it set to anything you want at the time you set up and install your torque converter. It is not uncommon for racing ones to be set to 5K or higher. |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
3200 is a average high stall torque converter
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
I need stronger axles to drop from that high. I already snapped an axle dropping it at 5k. I think I'd need a different motor to drop it from that high actually...
At 7000 RPMS that's got to be one serious launch! |
RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
how the heck do u hook at 7k? i would think u would just sit there and slip
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RE: is it better to have more torque or more horsepower?
i would rather have more tq then hp. cuz in a race u dont race past like 100 on the street. if u have alot of tq u can smoke the other guy off the line and maybe get far enough were they wont be able to catch u
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