I replaced most of the suspension components a coupld of months ago, so I finally took the car to Honda yesterday for an alignment.

Well, to make a very long story short, while adjusting toe on the passenger front (the driver's side was going to be next), instead of inner tie rod's socket rotating around its ball, the new inner tie rod end's ball joint is so tight that it unscrewed from the rack.

The tech didn't know what was going on because of course there's a boot over the inner tie rod end and, as he loosened it from the rack, it just screwed further into the outer tie rod end.

He did finally notice that the inner end was loose, so, with the service dept manager in tow, they moved the boot so that they could see what had happened.

The rack and inner tie rod end were both just fine, so I told them to just unscrew the inner end completely from the outer, screw the inner back into the rack and really tighten the hell out of it, and then screw the socket side back into the outer end.

Well, neither they nor any other Honda dealer had the two washers that go between the inner end and the rack.

I told them to check the condition of the two washers and, if the two "teeth" on the locking washer were still intact, to reuse it to get the car back together and aligned.

They said they would not re-use the washer.

This incident was yesterday morning - Friday - and Monday is Thanksgiving here in Canada. So my wife and I would have to be without the car until Tuesday.

I told them that the tie rod was new and was extremely tight in the ball joint and likely the tech had just flattened out the locking washer and it could just be bent in a different spot over the hex head of the aftermarket tie rod end.

They would not do it and said that the only way they'd let the car leave was if it were towed.

I asked about a loaner, and they said there was none available and suggested I rent a car for four days.

Luckily my wife is an AMA member so my wife had to bring her AMA card to me at the Honda dealer and we were towed home for free about an hour later.

I immediately got under the car to see what the story was and, sure enough, the inner tie rod was just dangling there in the breeze. But what really ticked me off is that neither washer was present. Unfortunately, the washers must have simply fallen off during transport.

I called Honda and they said the same thing. I asked why they didn't remove the washers if that could happen and they replied that they thought the end was still screwed in by a few threads.

Just too damned bad for me.

So now I'm sitting there ready to get the thing back together, but I have no locking washer.

I called various Honda dealers in the province, but NONE of them have a single locking washer.

I called two junk yards, but the only way I can get those washers is to buy the entire rack and pinion assembly, which includes every thing from tie rod end to tie rod end - for $100.

I called several autor parts places and to get those washers I have to spend a minimum of $84 to buy the entire new end - which I don't really need.

So I bought the used salvage rack and removed the washers and installed the end back into the car. Of course because the tech had not counted threads, I had to guess how far to turn in the outer end, so when I drove the car the steering wheel had to be turned to the 10 o'clock position to drive the car straight down the road!

So it toed in the offending side until it drove dead straight down the road with the steering wheel in the 12 o'clock position. I can go hands off now and the car drives straight down the road.

This little fiasco cost me $80 for the alignment and $100 for the salvage rack - and I STILL need an alignment.

Of course Honda will want ANOTHER $80 for the alignment even though we could all make believe that their finishing the first one (the rear is already done).

Something else that PO'd me was that they had lost about 7 of those little rubber lug nut washers that hold the plastic wheel covers in place. Think they'll admit to losing them? I doubt it like hell.

I am not happy with that Honda dealer right now.

At least we did not have to rent a car for four days.

(Yes, this was the short version!)

 

OK Tony i read the first 1/2 i will come back tomorrow nite and read the second 1/2 ... .........are you a book writer by any chance ?? .. Ok buddy .....


if the little ears wheres till intact on the inner tie rod washers why did they not just tighten the inner tie rod up and bent the lock washers over to secue it from coming loose again

I have reused those inner tie rod washers many times when i use to reseal p/s racks as long as the ears where still intact and i have never had one come loose at all.....

if the ears were still intact like you said,, it does not make any sense to me that they would not reuse them...and than they left them so loose that the wshers fell off ?? couldn't have just turn them in at least a few turns ,, if a tech looks at that he should know that it is ready to come off......man oh man ..bad tech . poor customer relation the way it was handled ....
One thing that you did that makes NO sense to me ,,,,,,,,why would you spend 100 dollars on a used p/s rack to get used washers ....when according to you.. it would have costed you 84 dollars to buy NEW inner tie end which came with NEW washers ??? Did i miss something ???

 

Ask em to give them back, they probably took them off on purpose. It makes putting the wheel covers back on easier.

 

that's being lazy.......flate rate i guess,,,,,,,,all they would hve to do is get a socket that fits slightly over the lug nut and push the plastic piece back on,,so they do not have to remove the wheel again to reinstall the cover
I use to do it all the time after an alignment so i did not have to remove the wheels off when reinstalling wheel cover

yeah i use to work flat rate also,, so when on flat rate you come up with a few little tricks to better manage the time ,,as long as quality is still the main object and the job done as it should

 

I bought the used assembly because I thought that if I keep the car long enough, possibly I'll have to replace the rack and pinion assembly. I now have TWO sets of washers instead of one. I also have two good boots and, as far as I can tell, the assembly has two good inner tie rod ends. The outers are too loose, but the inners are still good and, as far as I can tell, the rack and pinion is in good shape. I even have a 100-day warranty! (Can you imagine trying to collect on one of those!?)

The only problem is that I have a a rather large, dirty piece that has to be stored for, I hope, years.

The plastic rings really bug me. They are the "icing on the cake" of this whole affair. I have never lost a single one of those plastic rings in the many times I've removed those covers wheels and covers.

Some additional crap. The instant I told them that I was going to have the car towed, they pushed the car out into their parking lot. The wheel covers were not put back on the car, and there were only two lug nuts holding on each wheel. The covers were put into the trunk with the remaining lugs rolling around the trunk. When the AMA truck showed up, he himself had to install two more lugs on each rear wheel before he would tow it. I thought Honda not putting the lugs and covers back on was pretty low. If they had done so, maybe I'd still have those rings.

Now that I think about the whole thing in 20/20 hindsight, an experienced tech should have noticed right off the bat that something was not right with the alignment. Even I, a complete greenhorn, knows that the only way that the inner tie rod shaft can screw into the shaft of the outer end, WITHOUT producing the desired toe-out on the external laser indicator - ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THESE COMPONENTS ARE VIRTUALLY NEW - is that the inner end MUST be loosening from the rack. If the inner end's socket is rotating around the ball, as it should normally do, then the wheel MUST toe out as the threaded shaft "pulls" the outer end "shorter". If I had done these things many times, I would be looking for a problem on the FIRST rotation that showed no effect - not the SEVEN rotations that it takes to completely loosen the end from the rack! THIS IS COMPLETE B.S.!

If Honda attempts to claim that the inner was ALREADY loose when I brought the car in, I can easily refute the claim. If the inner were to start to loosen - even a single turn (why would it even do so on a part that does not normally rotate, let alone one that has a lock washer holding it in place?) - that passenger-side wheel would start to "toe in" and the steering wheel would have to be rotated to the right to compensate. When I had to re-adjust toe on Firday the steering wheel was at first in a 10 o'clock position to drive the car down the road straight. I rotated only three turns to get the wheel back to normal 12 o'clock, hands off, driving position. So I'm absolutely sure even a single turn out of the rack would have been very noticeable in steering, let alone, seven. As I drove the car to Honda, and as they themselves saw when they drove it into the alignment bay, the steering wheel was right where it should have normally been.

Even having already done the inexcusable in loosening the end completely from the rack, all they had to do to make things right was pop down the outer tie rod end joint, check the condition of the washers, re-install everything (took me less than ten minutes), finish the alignment, give me their fine opinion of how dangerous that washer was, and, if necessary for liability reasons, THEN tell me to get the car towed home!

THEY would have been happy and safe.

The TOW TRUCK DRIVER would have been happy.

MY WIFE AND I would have been happy and safe WITHOUT having to spend $100 for an assembly I hopefully will never use.

When I go back for the final alignment, I intend to tie-wrap both loose, floppy boots really tightly into thier "fully squished" position, so that they'll take up as small a horizontal distance as possible in the shaft of rod. Then I intend to tell the tech to put his finger on the now-fully-exposed washer if he has to make any "toe-out adjustment". (Toe-in adjustment would require that the shaft be rotated clockwise - if anything, tightening the inner rod into the rack, versus "toe-out" which, considering how tight these new inner joints are, might possibly loosen the inner from the rack.) Having his finger on the washer will allow him to ensure that the inner end does not loosen one iota on the rack as he makes his adjustment. Considering what has already happened, I think this is not an unreasonable request. Tell me if I'm wrong.

I'd like to ask the forum's advice on whether I should try to arrange a meeting with the dealership's manager to discuss this whole thing, and, if so, what should I say about what happened, and what should I ask for to bring me complete satisfaction? I fully intend to bring the salvage assembly into the meeting with me as a "visual aide" in explaining everything, but maybe this would be insulting and I don't want to do that, so I'd appreciate some adivce on this, too.

 

Ok, now I'm having a fit.

I just now for the first time read the receipt they handed me at Honda after paying for the failed alignment. It says:

"Front inner tie rods loose - not locked properly when replaced. Need to R&R inner tie rods and reuse or replace lock washers. Customer has declined repair - vehicle is being towed to customer's residence, vehicle is unsafe to drive."

First of all, they did not even closely examine the driver's side. In fact, the tech briefly moved that side with his hand and said he could NOT detect any looseness.

"reuse or replace washers"? That is a bald-faced lie. I practically begged them to check the condition of those washers and re-use them, if possible. THEY said THEY would not replace them - that's why they ordered them, that's why I was going to have to wait until Tuesday to have the car, that's why I had to get the car towed, and that's why I had to spend at least $84 just to have two washers to get the car on the road rather than spend who knows how much to rent a car for at least four days.

After reading these outright lies on that receipt, I'm beginning to think that the loosening of the inner end, the loss of the washers, the loss of the plastic rings, and the pushing out of the car into the parking lot with only two lugs on each wheel, may not be so innocent after all.

Am I being paranoid here?

 

Tony from my experience with Honda dealerships they are crooked. You need to be very carefull with your car there. Hey your lucky that you even got a print out. The last two times my car has been to Honda I have not received a print out and I was told to not bring my car back because they did not want to keep spending time on my car. My car has been refused by two dealerships in my area. You can be nice to them and it still will not matter. I would rather go to the mechanics that I trust locally. Honestly if you even try to go to any higher ups at the dealership about the issue I have learned that they will stick together. If you call Honda corp they will just tell you to go to another dealership. The way I have looked at my situation is I don't trust Honda dealerships anymore and I feel sorry for the people who continue to go to Honda and take the risk. From what I read you seem to have alot of knowledge about this so my only advice is forget about Honda. Go to a mechanic that you can trust. I hate to hear this crap but you know what I'm not suprised.. I guess you have to be related to or be a personal friend of the service people in the depts to get treated right. Good luck with your alignment.

 

Oh yeah, BTW, the "tech" doing the alignment is apparently equally qualified to do other repairs on '92 Honda Accords. When I told him that I had replaced the timing belt, etc, he corrected my by telling me that my engine only had ONE balance shaft and that the rear balance shaft gear assembly was actually the car's oil pump. Phew, I'm glad I finally got THAT straight!

You may be absolutely right about everything, and maybe it's a complete waste of time and effort to go through any kind of complaint process. Even if they were to give me a free alignment and plastic rings for the lug nuts, at this point I believe it's quite possible that if I wasn't standing there watching the tech do the job, they might very well sabotage the car.

You know, now that I think about it, the only jobs that this particular dealership has EVER done on this car were to recently loosen the front axle nuts so that I could do some suspension work, and, back in about 1994, "repair" our heater temperature control. They were indeed able to loosen the axle nuts, but their "repair" of our heater control (over $400) lasted about 1 month before it failed. It wasn't until I personally repaired that control a short time ago that the thing has finally worked properly.

It just happens that this Honda dealer is at a very convenient location to us. and the next closest one is a considerable distance across the city and I must travel through quite a bit of traffic to get there.

There's a fairly reputable place that is pretty close to us where my son-in-law takes his vehicles. I guess I should give them a try for the alignment.

Even with all of the above being said, however, I will still personally take a letter of complaint to the manager and service manager of that Honda dealership, and send a copy to Honda Canada. Yes, it may be useless, but if a customer does not complain about bad service in an effective manner, bad service may become the rule rather than the exception - at least at that one place. Just maybe the manager of the place is unaware of what's going on in his service bays.

 

You're right. I would still make a complaint. I know I did. Maybe it will do some good. Hopefully the dealership will step up and do what they are supposed to unlike the dealerships that I have had problems with. Good luck.

 

An update.

I had an alignment done at Auto Tech on Oct 13. No problem and the car handles great.

Very shortly after the Oct-6 incidents at the local Honda dealership, I wrote an 8-page letter of complaint to the three British Columbia brothers who own it.

I also went back to the dealership to hand-deliver copies of the same letter to the dealership's Manager and Service Dept Manager.

The local Honda managers recieved their copies on Thursday, Oct 12, and the BC owners should have received their copies on Tuesday, Oct. 17th.

On Thursday, Oct. 19, the Service Manaager put in the mail a letter to me saying that there had been "a discussion" with those employees involved, and he expressed concern about the "inconvenience" that the incident caused me. A check for $84 (what I paid for the failed alignment) accompanied that letter.

I received the letter and cheque today - just a couple of hours ago.

I was very surprised to receive any communication whatsoever from the Service Manager - let alone, a refund. I even said in the letter that I would be taking the car to someone else for the alignment that I still needed.

I think that automobile dealerships issuing refunds for ANYTHING is a relatively rare event, so somehow, something about this incident sparked some interest in someone having influence.

So now my wife and I are out "only" $174 for this fiasco, versus the $258 we were out before the refund.

I am now going to send a letter to the dealer that acknowledges my receipt of the refund and some kind of statement saying something about how at least they've tried to make things right with me - which they indeed have.

I'd still be "gun shy" about going back there to have any work done in the future, but who knows, maybe I'll get over it and go back to at least buy parts.