Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

This Wednesday I had my 03 accord in to have recall work done on the windshield wiper motors. They ended up replacing both motors. When I got the car back the driver side air conditioner vents blew hot air. The passenger side vents will blow cold air though. My questions is, are the air conditioner vents near the wiper motors so that they could have damaged one the vents? I find it hard to imagine they could have done anything to cause this considering the AC system is in the cabin, but on the other hand it is a huge coincidence. Can anyone offer some advice to me so I can try and diagnose?

Thanks Jared

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Warm air on one side and cold on the other is usually a symptom of low charge. Look under the hood for any evidence of damage to hoses or tubing under the hood that would allow refrigerant to escape. A technician could have droppeda tool or put some weight in wrong place.

good luck

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

I checked under the hood and did not notice any damaged hoses or tubes. I took the car back to the dealership. After a morning of diagnosing they came back saying that my compressor was failing and that was the reason I was seeing hot air on the driver side and cold are on the passenger side. I do not think this could be the problem though. They supposedly checked the charge and said it was fine. Would a failing compressor cause the driver side vents to blow hot and the passenger side to blow cold?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

If the compressor does need to be replaced can you suggest a good online supplier? I just ordered a factory service manual, is this a repair I can do myself?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

If you swap thecompressor yourself, you still need a shop to evacuate the system & recover the refrigerant, then evacuate it again to remove ALL air & moisture before charging.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

JimBlake,
Does a failing compressor sound like the culprit? Making the replacement necessary? It still feels like i am being duped here since the ac was in good working order before the car was brought in. Would they have purposely caused this? If so what can I do?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

I havent messed with the HVAC in my 2003, but it seems unlikely.
Bad compressor = both sides warm.
Marginal compressor = both sides same.

Maybe a broken air-direction door somewhere? Exercise the different directions for air to blow - watch & listen for anything not normal.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

There has been a slight noise as you change the temp dial in the blue range. This has been ongoing for a year or so.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Well, does it sound like a broken mechanism for moving the air-directions doors?

Im really hoping someone who has actually worked on their AC system will post something in here...

We just had the wiper-motor recall done too, but nothing strange happened. I dont think they ever needed to mess around inside the dashboard. Only under the hood.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

The air direction doors are in good working order. I just spoke with the service manager and he gave me a better description of what they found. The manager said that the system tested 11g of refrigerant instead of 55g, which is what you are supposed to have. He also said that there was a lot of refrigerant residue around the condenser and he believes it has been leaking for some time, thus the 44 gram difference. He charged the system again and the AC should work for the time being, but over time he feels the leak will continue and the ac will fail again. Being a chemical engineer who has taken a good bit of heat transfer, I am having a hard time understanding that the air in the vents will loose enough heat on its way from the passenger side ducts to the driver side ducts that would allow such a temperature difference in the air entering the cabin from the two sides. It was not a small difference.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

I also have a hard time understanding the dT between sides. I have a Helm book for that car, & I want to look at the air ducts to help understand that.

Evaporator works by spraying liquid out a nozzle, & it flashes inside the evaporator. Low inventory = boiling/flashing in tubing before it reaches evap. THAT location is where the cooling occurs. Maybe a BIG dT across the face of the evaporator core.

Leaking slowly for a long time is not uncommon. That stuff NEVER heals itself, so you have to fix the leak. Someday.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Thanks Jim for looking that up. I interested in what you find. I will look up as well though my book wont be in for a week or so.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

The air direction doors direct air flow to floor, dash, or defrost vents and mixes of these. The air is warmed by opening the heater core control valve w/ heat control (infinitely variable position) which allows hot water to enter the heater core warming the air flow. There is also a diverter door which blocks or allows air to flow over the heater core. I have never had warm air on one side and cold on the other myself, but have read of this several times on autoacforum.com and elsewhere. Apparently, the refrigerant only cools part of the evaporator when charge is low. This would account for low/no cooling of part of air return, but would not account for heated air (air much warmer than cabin air). Above is for manual AC/heater controls. For Auto Temp Control, the scheme may be quite different.

good luck

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

American Honda Customer Care
1-800-999-1009

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

http://www.hondapartsunlimited.com/s...14sda0_b60.gif


I did some inspection and verified that the compressor is covered in dirt and grime. I think the leak is coming from the suction hose (part 2) because it will glisten slightly under a flashlight. It could be as simple as replacing the o-ring (part 14). I am a little concerned that the leak would be coming from the sunction side and not the outlet side. Like I said before, the dealer recharged the system and everything is working fine so it must be a refrigerant containment issue. Id hate to have to replace the whole compressor due to a fualty o-ring.

Most shops want to replace the expansion valve and reciever dryer when they do this job. Is this neccesary?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Expansion valve is easily plugged. Replace whenever system is open is a popular opinion.

Receiver/dryer has dessicant to absorb moisture. When system is open to air, it gets saturated. Usuallyits good to replace that.

Sounds like YOUR system has a slow leak, not completely leaked out, not really exposed to air. ????

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

The hot & cold sides make sense to me now. Refrigerant comes in from the right, so if charge is low, all coolingcan be on theright side of the evaporator. The drawings in the Helm book arent real good to analyze flow distribution. But it looks liketheres notmuch room forair to mix before splitting to the side ducts.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

I believe it is a slow leak as well otherwise the dealership should have noticed a pressure build up or fall off when they evacuated and recharged the system. It is still working today so thats one day of containment.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

It is likely a bad o-ring that seals a junction causing the problem. Since some oil will remain at the leak site, you should see a build up of a dirt/oil mix. I would start checking the various connections of the a/c pipes in the engine bay. You can't see the ones inside of the evaporator.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Yesterday I took the car to one of the President's award honda dealers in the city. They injected a tracer and found that both the suction and discharge hoses were leaking. Its a slow leak though. Total estimated bill was $430 which included $150 worth of parts. I declined and they recharged the system. I'm considered changing the hoses myself once the system loses its charge again and then regarging the system myself as well. A friend of mine said he has a vacumm pump he can lend me to purge the system. My service manual should arrive soon though im not sure if it will have step by step details on this repair.In the mean time can anyone give me someTIPS on how I will go about changing these hoses and charging the system?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Leaking thru the hose or at an O-ring connection?

Replacement of hose is straightforward but(!) maybe have to remove stuff to get access.

Wait until next time it leaks down?
To be responsible, have a shop recover the refrigerant. Then change hose & you can evacuate & recharge. Helm bookshould have detailed instructions.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

The second shop I took it to saw the fluorescent dye at the o-ring and supposedly at the hose as well. Not sure if they saw both or just was to get me on the parts. I call back the first dealership to complain about their poor diagnosis and they stated that the reason they thought the compressor was bad was that they have a "freon sniffing tool" that detected a leak at the front of the compressor where the flywheel sits. He said there is an internal seal in there that has gone bad. Personally I don’t trust a "freon sniffing tool”. I think its quite possible its picking up the leak from the hoses. The compressor has a film of grime over the whole thing so I don’t know how they can differentiate. Maybe while its on the tool could detect the vapor leak but I still do not consider this ground for a Honda quoted $1500 repair. What do you think?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Some sniffers are pretty sensitive & they CAN distinguish the location pretty well. IF it is used properly. How would you know? Maybe you have several places leaking?

Since the dye is already in there, see if you can get your hands on a blacklight? Clean everything really good & watch it often. You want to catch it before the grime & the fluorescent dyehas a chance to spread over a large area.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

You generally don't need a sniffer to find a compressor rotating seal leak. Look at the plane of rotation around the compressor. If seal is leaking oil will be thrown out in a circle around the pulley and attract dirt creating a distinctive ring of dirt/oil. A light ring is OK as water is thrown off also in a rainshower.

The fluorescent dye should show the leaks.

good luck

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Good points. I will get a blacklight and investigate for myself. Thanks Guys! I will let you know what I find.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Does anyone know how long it the fluorescent dye will remain active in the system? (before it degrades) I haven't gotten a hold of a black light yet and it’s been over a week. Any idea where i can get a cheap hand held one?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Just get an 18" blacklight from spencer. I think they're $20. The dye won't lose it's effectiveness, but it will spread so the mark doesn't tell you much after some time. The refrigerant in the system is a mix of R-134a and POE oil. The oil carries the dye, so as more oil leaks out and sprays all over stuff, so does the dye.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Ifthe leaking dyehas alreadyspread out too much, just clean it up real good & try again.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Lets assume it’s the discharge hose that is leaking and not the compressor (I will verify with my black light when it comes). The factory service manual gives a good description on how to replace the hose, but when it comes to charging it suggests using the dealers machine. Is there a method where I can charge the system myself?

A colleague suggestedI use his vacuum pump to purge the system then explained that I could buy a couple cans of 134a and use the compressor to charge the system while the motor is running and the ac set to max. He hasa set of valves and hoses that he said I would need. If I can do this myself I will attempt the repair but if I need to have a technician charge it I will prolly have a shop do it for me. Can anyone shed some light on how I would charge the system myself?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

The basic thing is that machine will recover the old refrigerant instead of blowing it into the air.

When CHARGING, the trick is getting all the air out, and especially all the moisture. If your buddy has a vacuum pump, hook it up with a manifold or valves so you can shut it off & then put in the refrigerant without opening the systemAT ALL.

If your buddydoesnt need the pump for awhile, let it run a long LONG time. It takes a tremendous amount of time to remove moisture, much longer after the pressure gauge looks like its a good vacuum.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

You'd need a guage set with 3 hoses to do it (standard HVAC equipment) ..... I guess a valve rig would also work if you got a charge can with a guage on it. You need to be able to hook up to the system, but isolate the connection. If you could rig a hose with a valve that can handle the pressure, that could work too.

Connect the vacuum pump to the system via the valved connection. Evacuate the system with the car off for about an hour. Close connection valve and remove vacuum. Connect R-134a charge can to the connection. Open the valve to inject the charge. Start the car and run AC on MAX. Make sure the entire can is in the system. Turn off car. Disconnect valve rig. Charge system according to directions on freon charge can with the valve. Done.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

The service manual recommends removing the alternator when replacing the compressor. Does this need to be removed to replace the discharge and suction lines?

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Probably need the alternator out of the way so the compressor itself can be lifted out. You have to look at the hose connections to see whether theres room to work.

The alternator is not very difficult to remove.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Well the UV light finally came in the mail and I got a chance to take a look under the hood. I noticed some fluorescent leakage under the bolt that holds the suction hose to the compressor. I am a bit surprised by this because the dealership that injected the tracer saw the fluorescence at both the discharge and suction hose which make more sense since al least for the discharge side since it is the high pressure side of the system. If the picture uploaded properly, the leak is around bolt 22 (suction hose is square noted #2). This is also surprising because I would think that if the o-ring was failed then it would leak around the base of the connection and not from the top of the bolt. Is there a easy fix to this like pulling the bolt out and applying some compound? Or would this break the system to the point where I would need to evacuate and then charge after I finish the repair?

Either way right now the AC is blowing cold and the leak is slow so I might just wait it out till the winter (I live in Houston where it is HOT and dont want to risk messing something up and then no AC). I really would like to attempt the repair myself for the satisfaction but the feeling I am getting from other members is that the AC system is better left to the pros. I did get a quote from a shop our realtor recommended at $330 to replace both the suction and discharge hoses and recharge the system. That quote is if they get the parts from a Mexican factory. The same parts made in Japan bring the total to $460 though I believe all are "honda" parts. Does anyone know of a difference?

Any guidance for this New B would be greatly appreciated.


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RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

I contacted the Number you listed and explained the situation. What really got me was that Honda Cars of Katy would not even ackowledge the possibility of a refrigerant leak as the culprit. To them it was the compressor end of story. It is worth noting that replacing a compressor is a $1500 job versus $460 for the hoses so maybe there was a default to the higher dollar repair going on. I was impressed with how well the Honda corporate person handled the issue and how concerned he seemed to be.

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Replacing the hoses because of an end fitting leak makes no sense. The end fitting is sealed by an oring (part 14), which may have failed due to heat, age, etc. New oring and sealing should be fine. Only if you see dye at the hose crimp fitting or in the body of the hose, should the hose be replaced. There is possibility of a cracked end fitting, but from location, it's almost certainly the oring.

If you're comfortable working on AC; using manifold gauge set, vacuum pump, introducing lubricant, and R134a into the system, I would go for the repair. Small system volume does indicate the system should be recharged by draining compressor, blowing/flushing condensor, and replacing receiver/drier. Then pour/pump lubricant (need spec) into compressor and condensor, close system, perform final vacuum leak check after closing system, and if good (stable vacuum level on gauge for 30 mins) introduce spec charge weight of R134a. Don't try blowing or flushing the evaporator, unless it's removed from vehicle and expansion valve removed. Live w/ residual lubricant in evaporator.

good luck

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

So in doing this repair you recommend evacuating the system, removing the comprossor and draining the oil? The system has already been recharged and is working properly now. I am not sure if the dealership added oil when they recharged it after their inspection, though I doubt it. Since it is working fine I am tempted to skip removing the compressor since oil losses during the o-ring replacement should be minimal.

Man, what large amount of work this o-ring may have caused me!

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

As was explained, w/ very low volume systems even loss of a small amount of oil might cause compressor to be damaged. By flushing as much as possible and replacing w/ spec oil amount, you insure adequate lube oil to be carried by R134a.

That said, it might be OK as you describe. In most cases, it's best practice to replace receiver/drier when system is opened to insure maximum moisture scavenging capacity.

Before replacing oring, inspect all other connections and hose crimps very carefully for indications of leaks.

good luck

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Say I decide not to flush the system. The service manual indicates oil amounts for each major component replaced in the system as well as an amount of oil to add if you have had a leak. If I am unable to find a leak in any of the hoses and just replace the o-ring, I will then add the extra oil amount for the leak. Where should I add this extra amount of leak oil? If I have to replace a hose, where will I add its spec amount?

Howdo Iflush the condenser?

Finally the manual breaks done the oil that you should add based on what component you replace in the system. Thus I assume that if you flush the system you would need to replace the sum of all these? (Assuming you flush the whole thing, otherwise if you just flush the condenser like you have said, and replaced the dryer, then I assume you would only add the spec amount of oil for these two parts)
Thanks for your patience with my questions, being a New B I know I have a lot!

RE: Help! The dealership broke my AC!
 

Best bet -> Have the system charge reclaimed, replace the o-ring and seal the threads with Leak Lock purple, retighten the connection, bring it to the dealer or equivalent to cycle out the old refrigerant and oil blend and replace with a new, properly mixed R-134a/oil blend.