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Weird Electrical Problems. HELP!?!?!

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  #1  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:27 PM
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Exclamation Weird Electrical Problems. HELP!?!?!

**EDIT**
THIS ORIGINAL POST WAS BASED ON INCORRECT INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM THE OWNERS MANUAL REGARDING FUSES AND WIRING. FOR THE MUCH SHORTER AND CORRECTED OUTLINE OF THE PROBLEM, GO TO MY NEXT REPLY. FOR A GOOD LAUGH AT MY IMPOSSIBLY BAD LUCK AND SHEER IGNORANCE WHEN IT COMES TO WORKING ON CARS, READ ON AND ENJOY
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So, I've been through so much trouble trying to figure out what is going on with this thing since the day after I bought it last week. I'll give plenty of detail in case something stands out to those of you with far more experience than I. Here's the rundown from my perspective:
1st Breakdown: Spent some time going over the basics like checking every single fuse and looking at other stuff that may need some attention, based on what little I know about working on cars. Driving down the road a few hours later, and as I'm slowing at a red light, it sputters and dies (this is at like 5am so it's dark and it's a REALLY busy road). Start checking everthing I can think of, starting with spark plugs, air filter, etc. It's turning over easily, and for the first few times it seems like it's going to start, but immediately dies. After the first few times, it turns over like a champ, but no start. The gas gauge doesn't work (I fixed it later that day), so I have my fiancee bring me some gas in case that's the issue, even though I filled up the evening before (I thought maybe the pump wasn't working right and shut off when it wasn't full, since it only held like $5 and the seller said it had over 1/2 tank for sure but not certain exactly how much. After putting gas in, I still got nothing. About two hours later, after checking everything I could think of, I check the fuses again, even though I knew it wasn't that. Lo and behold, the fuel pump fuse is blown. Popped another one in and I'm on my way.

Trying to figure out why it blew, the only thing I can think of is that the filter is so badly clogged that the pump started drawing so much current trying to push fuel through that it popped the fuse. I give it a couple good steps on the accelerator hoping it clears it, and it seems to run fine.

2nd Breakdown: Driving on the interstate, we hit a monsoon. It's raining so hard I can't see, so I turn on the wiper(s) - when I bought it, one was missing, but it was in the trunk, so it was a little further down on my list, because I'm an idiot. It don't move, which makes my fiancee start freaking out, so I pull over, but I did notice that the motor for the missing wiper was moving even though the switch was turned back off. As I come to a stop, the car dies. At this point, I know what to do, so I pop in a new fuse and take out the wiper fuse while I'm down there so it will stop turning, then start it and blow the clog to hell. Let my foot off the accelerator and it dies. Fuse blown again. Gave it one last shot with a higher amp fuse, just hoping I can get us home. Same thing. At this point I'm assuming it's just so bad I have no choice but to change the filter right then and there. After having one brought to me, the rain stopped so I got out with my tools and set to work on the side of the interstate. 3 hours later, the tow truck arrives because I can't get the bottom side of the filter disconnected. Something isn't lining up like it should. Give up for the day.
Two days and a trip to the junkyard later, I've got the new filter installed. Start her up and there's a noticeable difference in power. Old fuel poured from the filter was brown and gross, so it definitely needed changing. Took it out for a test drive and was thoroughly pleased with my accomplishment, despite the hell I went through.

When I got back home, I decided to start working on the wipers, in case it started raining when I was driving. When I turned the wiper switch on, the car died. That was the moment I realized that the 2nd breakdown happened right after I tried turning the wipers on. Then I remembered something I hadn't noticed before, because it didn't click at the time: the morning of the 1st breakdown, it had just started sprinkling rain so I turned on the wipers...

Taking a closer look at the wiring, I noticed the previous owner had added a wire going from the C931 connector (hot when running, i'm pretty sure), which shares a fuse with the fuel pump, to the main relay under the steering column. It was spliced into the wire connected to terminal 7... the fuel pump. Now, other than a bad relay, I can't think of any reason you'd want to make that connection. The odd thing though is that as far as I can tell, that's the only terminal that was jumped. Removing the wire from the option connection did in fact prevent it from starting As before, it turned over like a champ, but no start. So, logic tells me that at least part of the relay is bad, but please correct me if I'm wrong on this. What I can't figure out though, is how turning the wiper switch on would cause an overcurrent in the fuel pump circuit and blow the fuse. I recall maybe seeing something about some kind of integrated control thing connected to some part of this circuit or something it shared with this circuit or hell, who knows. I think it does have something to do with the intermittent wiper control, right? I've noticed one other wire that ran from somewhere under the dash, under the car with the fuel lines inside the plastic cover, to something in the back.

So I believe I need a new main relay to fix the pump issue, but where do the wipers come into this, and why are they causing it to blow the FP fuse when they have their own 30A circuit that makes the motor turn when the switch is on regardless of the switch position?

I'd really love to be able to drive my awesome new (to me) car to work, but I also REALLY don't want to end up on the side of the road again. Anyone have any suggesions?
 

Last edited by briansipsy; 08-23-2018 at 01:14 AM.
  #2  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:15 PM
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Using a higher amp fuse is a bad idea, because you will draw amps past the design of the wires and can cause more damage by melting/burning a wire. Please use, because you can turn a "simple" wiring issue into a nightmare.

Do you have a shop manual, if you are calling a connector, C931? Go through the voltage tests on the main relay connector to see if you are missing voltage on one of the terminals.

Which fuse(s) are you blowing?



 
  #3  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:10 AM
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Okay, now I'm completely thrown off, and have to rethink all of this. When I first started digging into the fuses the day I bought the car, I pulled the owners manual out of the glove box and found the fuse panel diagram. What you have posted, which is the same as the manual I found online (mine specifies COUPE though instead of SEDAN, so I'm not sure if there's anything there that would make a difference) both have very different diagrams.

So at this point, starting over here's what I've got:

1. There's a jumper wire from option B (uses fuse 7) to the terminal pictured below. The wire colors and terminal numbers seem to be different than what is on the manual, unless I'm looking at it incorrectly. The jumper wire is spliced into a BLACK/YELLOW wire at terminal 7 (fuel pump)

2. When the 30A fuse (fuse 6) for the wiper motor is inserted and the car is on, the wiper motor runs continuously, so I have had to remove it.

3. When the car is running and the wiper switch is turned on (regardless of whether wiper motor fuse is in or out), Fuse 7 immediately blows, and the car dies.

4. Having accidentally left the wiper switch on without realizing it, inserting a new fuse and starting the car initially succeeds, and keeping the RPMs up (4-6k), the motor would sometimes run (thought I was blasting a clog in the filter), until I take my foot of the gas pedal. At that point, the fuse blows and the car dies.

5. Unplugging the jumper wire from the option socket prevents the car from starting.

This seems to be going in a totally different direction than I initially thought.
 
  #4  
Old 08-23-2018, 01:36 PM
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So the jumper wire is from 6 to 7? If so, maybe you need to jump 7 to somewhere else that has power when the key is in the number 2 (II) position.
I only say that, as you've got a lack of power to the pump fuse (it could be the main relay causing this). I wouldn't replace the main relay until I've tested it thoroughly though, as it could be good, and the problem is elsewhere.
I say that, as I was having trouble with my 97 Accord, and everybody told me it was a bad main relay, even though it checked out good according to the FSM (Factory Service Manual).
My problem turned out to be a bad 12 volt power source to the injector resistor pack, as it only had 3 volts, instead of 12 there. It took me a month of after work and weekends to find that. :O
 
  #5  
Old 08-23-2018, 08:39 PM
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The jumper wire is connected at the option socket above the fuse panel. It does use fuse 7 though. Then it's spliced into the wire going from the main relay to the fuel pump.
Today, I removed the main relay and resoldered the connections. A few of them looked like they wouldn't last much longer, but now they all have a nice fresh shiny pile of tin on em.
After resold ring, I reconnected the relay and removed the jumper wire from the socket to test the relay. When I turn the key to ig2 position, one of the two relays inside the main "relay" engaged while the other did not. So now I believe that there is either a short in the wiring for the positive side of the relay coil, or that relay itself is bad.
As for the wipers being part of the problem, it still seems odd that it would blow the fuse that controls the abs (and now apparently the fuel pump). Perhaps something with the integrated circuit unit?
 
  #6  
Old 08-24-2018, 06:43 AM
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Update:
A little more testing of the main relay this morning. Using an extra battery and some wires, I was able to engage both relay coils by making contact with the solder pins. When the relay is installed though, only one coil engages when the switch is turned on. I am having trouble finding the correct wiring diagram though because it doesn't seem to be matching up to anything I can find. At least not from what I can tell. Also, the diagram on the relay enclosure is garbage. It is probably the single most nonsensical thing I've ever seen.
 
  #7  
Old 08-24-2018, 11:20 AM
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SO THE SAGA CONTINUES!:
I took the morning off work so I could get my registration done, since I hadn't had a chance yet. Went for my emissions testing and passed (which I was a bit nervous about), then on the way to the tag office, the CEL came on. Talk about luck! If it had done it ten minutes earlier, I'd have failed emissions. Luck is relative at this point though.
So, I check the codes and I'm getting 12 (EGR) and 15 (ignition output signal). I also found an old ignition switch in the trunk. Perhaps this could be a key component of my problems (see what I did there? lol) this whole time.
 
  #8  
Old 08-24-2018, 02:22 PM
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I'm still confused on the modified wiring. Can you take some pictures of the setup and post them on here?
 
  #9  
Old 08-25-2018, 06:41 PM
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I've currently got the jumper wire disconnected, plus it's hard to get a picture up in there, so this diagram shows what they did. Basically, they added a jumper wire from the option socket on the fuse panel to the wire that goes to the fuel pump (terminal 7 on main relay).

When turning the key to the ON or START position, 12v relay 1 engages as it should. However, 6v relay 2 does not engage, so the fuel pump does not work. To fix this, the previous owner added a jumper wire from option 2 to the fuel pump wire, so it gets power when it should. The problem is that this option socket shares a fuse with the ABS system, mirrors, and ICU that controls intermittent wipers (fuse 7). So when I turn the wipers on, it immediately blows fuse 7, which also kills power to the option socket - and the fuel pump.

The main relay is not the problem. I pulled it, opened the casing, re-soldered all the connections, and have tested it at various points on the circuit board. Both relays will engage when voltage is applied, in my tests. When I plugged it back in to the car, testing it with my meter shows 12v at the positive side of the coil, but it will not engage. The negative side of the coil is the Green/Black wire on terminal 8. According to google, this wire goes to the ecu on terminals A7 and A8. I'm not familiar with the whole ECU thing as I've not really gotten that far into it.
 
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Old 08-25-2018, 09:28 PM
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Okay, so I checked continuity from terminal 8 on the main relay to A7 and A8 on the ECU. A7 has continuity but A8 does not. There's also no wire in A8 though so I'm not sure how they're both supposed to be connected to terminal 8.
I googled it and saw where a lot of people had a bad ECU so I decided to go ahead and check it. I opened it up, and I think I found the culprit of this whole debacle!

Capacitor C44 looks like it has leaked, and the solder pad for C41 is burned along with one for C44. It's hard to get a perfect picture but I think I got it well enough to see.
 


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