1996 Accord 4 cyl, crank but won't fire...any ideas?
 

Guys,

This is the second time that we've had this issue in the last couple of months. I replaced the ignition switch a few months ago and since then, everything has been fine.

Now, it's doing the same thing. Crank but no fire.

No check engine light is on..

Could it be the ignition switch again this soon?

How do I check to make sure the engine is getting fuel?

What about spark?

Is there any relays or anything that are common in going bad?

Thank you so much for any advice,

Donnie

Got any old spark plugs? You can put a plug into one of the sparkplug wires & lay it on a good engine-ground then crank the starter. A better way is to use a timing light if you have one.

A common problem is the main relay failing to switch on the fuel pump. All noisemakers turned off, turn the key to ON but don't immediately turn to START. Listen for the fuelpump to run for 2 seconds then turn off. If it runs, then your main relay (along with the pump itself) is OK.

The definitive way to check the fuel system is measure the fuel pressure while trying to start. But even that doesn't prove the injectors are firing.

One way is to pull a sparkplug right after trying to start it. Smell gasoline?

Jim,

Thank you so much for the suggestions. I will check it out this evening and see what I can figure out...

I'll try and listen for that relay and then I'll also put the paper clip in the little connector and see if there are any CEL's coming up...

And yes, I do have some old plugs...I'll go right on down the list and check everything and report back.

Thank you again so much for the help,

Donnie

P.S. Nice WRX, I sell the new ones in northern CA. That's a nice car you go there. I miss the sedan STI still...

Okay, I went out and listened for the fuel pump. Check

Checked for spark, it's there.

Checked the CEL lights, the check engine light just stayed on and didn't blink at all when I stuck the paper clip in the little two wire connector up under the glove box.

The SRS light did blink once slow. But it doesn't ever come on when driving...


Here's two weird things though...

When I replaced the ignition switch about 2-3 months ago, first it wouldn't do anything at all(just crank and crank), then it would barely get a little cough but would never quite fire up.

When I just went back out and tried again, it's doing the exact same thing...? It will almost fire but just won't.

Then the other weird thing, there was oil in the spark plug hole...it was completely doused. I found the DIY and I'm going to get the seals for it this week and get those put on...but this shouldn't cause it to just suddenly not start right?

There has been oil in that plug hole for a year or so. I just hadn't found this forum and didn't realize there was such an easy fix...

The oil is fresh and changed every 3000. Car is maintained well...


Does it sound like it's just another ignition switch and it's just coincidental that the oem ignition switch lasted 165K miles and this one went out is less than 5K miles?

Thanks,

Donnie

Sometimes a weak spark can fool you into thinking that you have a good spark.

If you have a timing light, hook it up to one wire at a time and see if you have enough spark to flash the timing light. Let us know what you find.

Also, are the maintenance items up to date like the distributor cap, distributor rotor, spark plugs (only use NGK V-power that are made for your car), air filter?

PA,

Thanks so much. I do have a timing light but it's about 20 miles away so I'll have to get out there and get it when my other car gets home.

I'll go ahead and replace the distributor cap and coil wire cause there is a little bit of corrosion underneath the connection between the two at the distributor cap.

The air filter is good and I may not have NGK's in it right now but it has been running fine with these plugs for the last 2 years...should I really swap them or start with the other stuff first?

Thanks again,

Donnie

CEL staying on solid when you jumpered the SCS connector means there's no error codes stored.

It IS strange for the ignition switch to go bad this quick, but stranger things have happened. With a voltmeter, you can check it. Backprobe the distributor wiring harness connection at the power wire - I think it's black & yellow?? It should get battery voltage when the ignition switch is at ON and at START. One possibility is that it has power during cranking, but then it doesn't have power when you release the key to the ON position.

Corrosion is pretty normal at the posts on the underside of the distributor cap. You can probably scrape it off with a knife, or go ahead & get a new one just to rule that out.

PA, do you know the acceptable resistance across the distributor rotor??

Oil in the sparkplug tubes will allow the spark to short across to ground, but only for the one with oil. All 4 like that?? The engine should start & run (poorly) on 3 cylinders. What did the firing tip look like? You were checking for fuel after cranking...

Thank you again for all of the help and suggestions.

I'm at work now today but I will check all of the above tonight when I get home.

I'll check the voltage at the distributor and then just go ahead and get a new cap and coil wire just to be safe.

I do not know the acceptable resistance across the rotor? How do I check?

Only one cylinder has oil in the spark plug hole...it's the third over from the right when looking towards the back of the car.

I did check for fuel after cranking and smelled it pretty strong. I could also hear the fuel pump turning on..

Probably just an unlucky situation where the ignition switch went bad twice in less than 6 months. I found the receipt an we bought it in October.

Where do I get those new seals for the valve covers? Is it a dealer only item or would an autozone/kragen have em'?

Thanks again,

Donnie

I never saw a resistance range for the rotor in the shop manual.

Is your car an EX, LX, or DX?

The maintenance interval for the accord is 2 years or 40K miles on spark plugs, so you are due. The plug you want to get is NGK part number ZFR5F-11. They will cost you ~$6 TOTAL at any parts store. Plugs are a maintenance item that can wear out. Replacing them will eliminate a cause of the starting problem. Inspect the distributor cap and rotor edge for excessive wear, and the spark plug wires for cracks in the insulation.

You can pick up a complete Fel-Pro valve cover gasket set for ~$20 at most parts stores. I used that brand on my car and had no problems with the quality. The set will include seal between the cover and the head, the VC bolt grommets, and the upper tube seals. Get some Permatex RTV Grey, because you will need some for the base of the two archs (see pic below).

PA,

Thanks so much for this post! I'll get all of the above this weekend, it's due anyway like you said. And the car is an LX model.

I'll use the NGK's this time and make sure and replace those gaskets/upper tube seals. I always have some RTV, black should work fine right?

Also, I'll let you guys know later tonight if it's actually getting power to the distributor cap with the key position in (on and start).

12 volt test light will work fine or do I need to use a DMM?

thanks,

Donnie

Normal RTV releases silanes for awhile after it "looks" like it's cured. That's instant death for oxygen sensors. So it's probably worth it to get the right stuff. Does it come from an auto-parts store & says "SAFE FOR SENSORS"?
HondaBond($$) from a dealer or Permatex Ultra-Grey is the same stuff at auto-parts stores.

Test light should work checking power at the distributor. It's either ON or NOT.

Jim,

Thanks. Point taken, I'll get the grey.

Your car has an external coil.

You can also test for power at the blk/yel wire on the coil electrical connector. A 12V test light will work. The blk/yel wire at the coil and the one that feeds into the distributor both get power from the ignition switch.

Well guys, kind of crazy. lol I just got home here a little while ago, popped off the coil connector, turned on key. she's got juice

re-connect, pop off distributor...she's got power too.

Re-connect, turn key...car fires right up with no check engine light.

Easy fix lol.






J/k...I will still go ahead and change the plugs, cap, coil wire and valve cover gasket/plug hole things anyway. But, it's just kind of crazy how now it fires right up...

Thank you both so much for all of the help, this forum is great and as I do repairs on this car from now on, I'll go ahead and snap some pics and try and post a write up.

Donnie

lol, I figured that was too good to be true. Just went out to smoke a cigarette and figured I pull the car into the garage...didn't start.

Same thing, crank and almost fire but just won't...

I didn't check to see if they were getting power when the car was cranking(key in start position)...I'm here by myself so I need a helper.

Could it be the coil? Is there anyway that I could check to make sure it's good?

You will have to test when it isn't starting.

I would use the timing light to see if there is enough spark to flash the timing light when you try to crank the engine.

If you have 12V on that blk/yel wire, and you are getting no spark, it is either the tune-up items discussed earlier, the ignition control module, or the coil.

if no spark could be coil.. igniter, distr rotor, cap,

is coil wire ok ??

I do have 12 V coming out of the black yellow wire on both when the key is in the on position.

The coil wire does have corrosion @ the connection to the distributor cap, I sprayed it out with electrical cleaner, let it dry out and hooked it back up.

I'm still going to go ahead and get a new cap/coil wire because I think the reason it's corroding is because it was a cheapo and it has a poor connection.

Update
 

Guys,

Okay I went and bought the new plugs, distributor cap, grey rtv and the valve cover gasket set. I also grabbed a timing light to check and see if it would fire off.

Everything went in smooth. The timing light would fire off on each plug wire because the car actually started up and ran 3 or 4 times in a row last night. When I got it all buttoned back up, it fired right up. I went out an hour or so later and it fired up again.

Now this morning, my old lady goes to leave for work and comes back inside the house and says "car won't start again" WTF!!!??


I didn't buy a new coil wire because I have to buy a whole set of wires just to replace the coil wire. I cleaned out the little bit of corrosion that was under the coil wire where it connected to the cap. The cap had the most corrosion underneath so I replaced that just to be safe.


This should leave me down to the coil wire, coil or ignition switch right?

Is there any way to check and see if the coil is still good?

I really don't mind replacing any of these parts but I'd just like to figure out which on it is as they are both 50 bucks separately and I can't imagine it being both at the same time...?

Thanks for any more help or advice,

Donnie

What about that ignition control module? Where is that and is there any way to test it?

ICM is inside the distributor & some AutoZone-type stores can test it. And I think there's something in the DIY section about "coil vs ignitor" testing. Something about connecting a test lamp somewhere but I never had to do that on my cars.

Jim,

Thanks! I've been in the DIY section the last hour or so. I'll search around for that write-up. My girl doesn't get back for a few hours with the other car so I've just got to figure out what to go buy by the time she gets back...

I've never timed a 4 cyl little car like this before...I have 68 camaro and 00 corvette so both are V8's and firing order is completely different.

How should the timing light be firing on these little 4 cylinders? Really fast just like V8 or...?

Thanks,

Donnie

Timing light just like any engine. It's only clamped to ONE plug wire so RPM is RPM.

Cyl #1 is at the pulley end.

Jim,

I plugged the timing light onto each individual spark plug wire...3 of them fired it off real good it seemed and one seemed like it fired the light a little bit slower in between flashes...?

I looked for that write up and I think I found it but I'm having a tough time understanding exactly how to test the ignition control module?

To test the coil, I basically pull one wire at a time off of the cap and check for the arc in between the cap and plug wire right?



Where is that ignition control module? I'm just thinking it's some type of module/relay because it's an intermittant issue that only seems to happen when the car is cold in the morning...the tach at one point did jump around kind of funny but it was months ago and was kind of a 1 or 2 time thing that has never happened since.


Thanks again for all the help, some how I'll get this thing going.

Donnie

There's 2 different distributors (EX or LX) but #8 is the ignitor (ignition control module) in both pictures.
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...v401_e0511.png
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/...v401_e0510.png

And here's the thread about coil vs. ignitor that I was thinking about.
https://www.hondaaccordforum.com/for...ead.php?t=8767

Jim,

Thanks so much! I found the link to that address but I was still having a tough time.


I just can't figure out what to replace next...the car starts intermittantly.

This should coupled with the fact that I replaced the "ignition switch" less than 6 months ago should eliminate the ignition switch itself??


The coil/distributor also have 12 v power going to them with the key in "on" and it started so they're getting power in "start".

the timing light did flash but albeit not flashing like crazy, the coil should either be bad or good(can't be kinda bad I don't think?)

I DID NOT REPLACE THE ROTOR. I just didn't think it would be the cause, because it's only 2 years or so old. I will if you guys think it could be the issue??

That ignition control module seems as though it doesn't really go bad, that write said they are known to go 250K miles all the time(it also says "only replace with specific brand")

I'm not paying all the money for a honda factory part so do you guys know if any parts houses(autozone, kragen, chucks etc...) carry the correct ignition control module?

Like I said, the fuel pump turns on and I can hear it and smell fuel.

There's something stopping me from getting spark. When I get a helper here a little later, I'm going to test everything out again with the timing light and 12 v test light and see if it's getting spark from the coil to the cap and from each plug wire arcing over to the cap??

I only checked one plug pulled out sitting against a ground and did see a good blue spark from the electrode to the bolt I was using for ground...

I'm not too good with electrical stuff so that's why I'm just trying to cover my bases, make sure and not replace a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with my issue.

Donnie


P.S. Thanks for that diagram, I'll see if I can figure out whether or not the ignition control module is bad as this seems like the most likely culprit or not???

I'm thinking either coil or ignition coil module? It just seems as if my coil is good though because it has spark and fires the timing light...?

But the it fires up intermittantly so how could it be the module?

I just checked that link, that's not the same one that I had found. Thank you! That one is easier to understand.

You're probably gonna have a hard time with that test because it's intermittent. The ignitor-vs-coil test is written for when the car NEVER starts.

Loose or corroded wire terminals at the ignitor or coil??

It HAS TO be some type of loose wire at the coil. This thing is so weird, would not start this morning when my girl went to leave. Told her take my car, I went down and tried myself with no luck.

Just went back out with a buddy a few mins ago..unplugged the coil and checked the light stayed on with the key in on and start position.

Hooked it back up and now it just started twice...

WTF is going on? lol

Guys,

If you had to guess one of the these three which would you guess...

1)coil

2)ignition switch again

3)ignition module



It is definitely getting power to the coil/distributor with the key in on and start(even when the car DOES NOT fire).

I jammed a 12v test light probe into the connector and checked again to be sure when I WAS HAVING THE PROBLEM.

Does this leave either the coil or the module?

Would the coil be good for sure if the timing light was firing on each cylinder when the car is cranking but not firing?

Thanks again for sticking with me and helping me out...

I'll get this thing going one way or another...

Donnie

All the wires appear to be fine...no corrosion and the connectors are all good...

If the timing light is firing, then it appears your spark is good (making this even more confusing).

Try new spark plugs? I don't like throwing parts at it, but I once had a non-start condition because of flooding with fuel. Got that fixed, dried out the cylinders, & it would NOT start. Firing tips of the sparkplugs looked real nice too, so I was too stubborn to "waste" plugs that looked real good. Eventually I threw up my hands & installed brand-new plugs. It started right up.

I figured they had gone too long trying to fire when very wet with fuel. Now the plugs were fouled in a strange way that left them looking visually real nice. My best guess is the plugs found a way to short-circuit the spark internally which doesn't ignite the fuel.

Jim,

Dang man...I just replaced those plugs too with the NGK's that you guys recommended. Just to be safe...still no luck though...

It's weird too because it started 5 or 6 times all throughout the day yesterday.. it seems to have a tough time when it's cold outside?? This morning I tried 10 times, disconnecting and re-connecting the coil/dist..jiggling the wires...

No luck..

Just for yuks, pull the vacuum hose off the fuel-pressure regulator. The little vacuum hose to the intake manifold isn't supposed to have any fuel in it, only air. If fuel is in there, the FPR is ruptured & giving you way too much fuel. It's one more thing you can rule out as the reason for not starting.

Jim,

Will do! I'll try and sneak out of work today for a bit, run home and see if there's any fuel in there..it'll probably start up now lol.

I'll be able to figure out which hose that is right? Is it a little one or a big one like the PCV hose?

Of course...I run home at lunch and it fires right up 5 times in a row. Ran it for 5 minutes, came back out, shut it off and fired right back up...wtf!!! lol

I did pull off that little vacuum hose that runs from right by the fuel rail into the intake manifold..it was dry as a whistle.

The ONLY common denominator is the car does not start in the morning when it's cooler outside...?? it starts all afternoon just fine or so it seems...

If you got any more ideas, please throw them at me..

Thank you again,

Donnie :confused:

Spark leaking to ground from degrading plug wires or distributor cap?? Check like this...

Complete darkness - this works best at about 4am 'cause the engine's completely cold & maybe even damp. Open the hood, start the engine, & look under the hood. Look for any arcing around the sparkplug wires or distributor cap. Anything even a dull blue glow indicates your spark is leaking out to ground (instead of going to the spark plug). Replace whatever's glowing.

The arc can happen through a microscopic crack in the rubber insulation. Or sometimes it tracks through dust & dirt on the surface of the distributor cap. Once that happens cleaning doesn't always help because the arc has etched its path into the smooth surface of the cap.

Jim,

Thanks so much. I'll do it tonight, I may just go ahead and buy new wires just to be safe and eliminate that possibility.

Thank you again and I'll report back,

Donnie

Well, still check them. Honda factory wires are expensive but they seem to last forever. I'd really think about those or maybe NGK wires before any-old-brand from the parts store. 14 years is a respectable life...

Jim,

I went out last night and checked under the hood. There wasn't any arcing that I could see anywhere...??

The car fired up and ran too, even at midnight last night. Then this morning at 7 am when I have to go to work, of course it won't start.

I'm going to go ahead and get new wires, I'll look for the NGK's. I'll buy another rotor and go ahead and get the new ignitor??

Do you guys know of any parts house that carries the brand of ignitor that we're supposed to get? I read in the write-up that you should only get one brand...(it's a three letter acronym).

I can't imagine it being the coil because it fires up sometimes and runs great. If the other stuff that I listed above doesn't fix it, I guess I'll try another ignition switch.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions,

Donnie