91 accord 2.2l sohc f22a at sedan
 

Hello New Member Forty
 

I moved you to this forum because you posted in the New Member forum and this one is better to get some answers :)

Im thinking that you need to check the following things on your Honda.

Check for loose or faulty electrical connections @ the distributor, coil, and the alternator....Also take your battery and alternator out of the car and take them to an AutoZone for a Free checkup :D

You could have a Vacume Leak @ the gasket that's between the Intake Manifold and The Throttle Body.

And maybe you are not getting fuel reaching the Fuel Injectors.

There are a few things that you can check..hope this helps you out..

Oh , By The Way...Welcome To The HAF :D:D:D:D

Alternator, vaccum, fuel?
 

Hey man i really appreciate that info. Whenever i get home i will defiantly check in on those things. Although im pretty positive that the alternator is somewhat good, since it started the first time and ran for a bit after we took off the jumpers. But i had to turn off the car for it was overheating but after that whenever i tried to start it, it died after a few minutes of being on, try 2 it died after 1 minute,try 3 it died immediatly after a few tries afterwards never cranked again. I thought that maybe i had flooded the engine so i waited for an hour or so and tried again, still nothing. A vaccum leak could result in the problem but i was also wondering if the main relay could be bad in turn im not getting suffecient fuel. Man you could say im lost. I will most definatly try those things tonight and give you the results tomorrow to see what you think.

Is the starter tuning the engine?

If the starter is working, then you need to verify that you get spark and fuel. Spark is easier. If you have a timing light, hook it up to each wire. See if you generate enough spark to flash the timing light.

As for the overheating, you should open the radiator cap and top off the coolant if it is low. Keep a close eye on it. If you loose coolant quickly, then there is likely a leak somewhere.

I would suggest a compression test especially considering it overheats.

Yes the starter is turning the engine. It turns over but just doesnt turn on. Im getting fuel, i have decided thatby spraying either into the intake and it still didnt turn on... My alternator is good and my brand new battery is now completly dead...

I checked the vaccum lines and they are all installed correctly and the sensors are all connected.

While i was fiddling around and notcing things, i saw that there was small drops of what looked like an irredesient color...i have a radiator leak, a decient sized one too. But its on the top of the radiator coming from the top hose... It isnt the hose itself but it is actually the radiator underneath where the hose connects to the radiator. I think i will have to replace it, dont think it is fixable the hole is the size of a dime and the crack stretches about an inch long... Great another setback.

I also recall that whenever it did stay on for a minute there was a terrible vibration in the whole car... Does that mean i should replace my motor mounts?

when car does not start,,since it is not a fuel issue,, chk for spark , if lack of it, could be a bad igniter and or coil.........there are write ups in the DIY section to diagnose the issue

so i finally had taken my main relay off to get it checked... and the volt-o-meter read positive. os if that works then it has to be the fuel pump im assuming> is that a possibility? someone told me to check my fuel lines to se if they are creased\eend. so is it possible that ithey can get clogged? imy bsttery is dead right now do i cant listen to see if the fuel pump is even winding... could it be a possibility that it is faulty battery? im not thinking that it is bkuz when i try to jump it, the car just turns overk never starts... any ohter suggestions? vaccum lines maybe or the timing is keeping it from starring considering have relaced the distributor sparkplus, spark plug wires of what. i i put the jumpers on the car the inside lights come on as well as the check engine light, could i have a bad ecu or waht

I've never in my life seen diagnostics by way of a poll. ROFLMAO Good luck

I am voting for taking a compression test and checking the condition of the spark plugs. The engine vibration is most likely an engine miss (a dead cylinder). Your symptoms fit a blown head gasket, engine vibration, overheating and hard starting. If the spark plugs are coolant fouled it will not start. A compression test will tell if the head gasket is blown, if it isn’t you are down to either no spark or the plugs are fouled.

i replaced the spark plugs with new ones theose e3 diamond fire spark plugs. so i know those are good. how do i do a compression test, and what tools do i need? that would definaltly make alot of sence so whenever i get off work i will try to get to that...

1. Get the battery tested at an auto parts store.
2. Charge the battery, so you can troubleshoot. Check that all ends of both battery cables are clean and attached tightly.


3. IMPORTANT - Determine if the problem is due to lack of spark or lack of fuel.


For spark: If you have a timing light, try to start the car with the timing light hooked up to each cylinder wire. See if there is enough spark to flash the timing light.

Since you replace the spark plug wires, make sure you installed them in the correct order on the distributor cap? The order on the distributor cap going clockwise is 1, 3, 4, 2. Did you replace the distributor rotor too?

Go ahead and check for spark before the compression test. On the test do a search on here as recently someone posted a very detailed procedure if you still need it. Were the old plugs fouled with gas or coolant?

He has replaced just about everything.(maintenance wise)

I'll list the items he has replaced.

radiator
thermostat
spark plugs with e3
bosch plug wires
distributor
distributor cap
serpetine belt
alternator previousally replaced by owner about 2500 miles ago
intake filter replaced with k&n (and is clean and oiled)

Starter was rebuilt by me (and yes it works it turns over better than urs)

Cleaned the TB and checked it for "sticking"

Now then what he needs to do is verify weather or not it is a fuel problem or a spark problem. He knows how to also (fuel - spray some carb cleaner down the intake it bypasses the fuel pump the lines filter fpr rail and injectors. if it starts and and runs for a min then u know its the fuel system. then he can work his way down starting with the injectors maybe clean them and test them with a volt meter...... i can go on and on. i have told him all this and more.

and if you know how to do proper compression test you would know that u have to get the engine to operating temp then shut off and then begin ur test. although he could do one just to see if hes blown a valve or a bad piston ring or god forbid a connecting rod. i agree with that but its still not a proper test. and since it ran before he replaced the parts mentioned on the list above i think he should get it running again at least started before he tries a compression test.

what i think maybe a big issue is that his timing is way off and i mean way off. timing belt may have snapped. fixable yes easily done in a weekend at an apartment complex parking spaces NO. This is where a lot of his problems reside. if he had a nice little garage or something im sure he wouldn't have even gotten on this forum to ask a damn thing. he would have taken it apart and rebuilt it from the ground up (believe me i know him he would do it) and he would replace everything you can practically making it a new engine and not having to worry about any problems. but he doesn't have the time to diagnose or the resources so to say.

He is basically asking you guys to be psychic which ur not and tell him whats wrong. but what you could do is give him a list of things it could be and then put next to each possibility a percent of it being the likely suspect.

~90% of the time, a not start is due to lack of spark. The other 10% from fuel problem. Less than 1% of the time, lack of compression, ECU, etc. Other than that, I can't predict what is wrong until some diagnostics are done on the car. Please don't be shy and post what you find.

Is his car and EX, LX, DX? Was the distributor a new one or junkyard part? Did the distributor come with an ignition control module? Did the dist. come with a coil? How quickly is he losing oil? Is this a massive leak and where is it coming from?

To verify spark or fuel problem, here are my suggestions.

For spark, get a timing light. It is the quickest way to verify a good spark.

For fuel: The best way to verify fuel pump is working properly is to attach a fuel pressure gauge on the rail. Next best is to loosen the relief valve on top of the fuel rail and turn the key to the II position. Only do this on a cold engine! Fuel should spray out of there. Easiest check is to charge the battery, turn the key to the II position, and listen for the fuel pump to prime. As for the injectors, pick up a 12V LED test light at radio shack. Unplug one of the injector electrical connection. Hook up the test light to both leads. Try to start the car. The test light should be off, then start flashing when your starter turns the engine.

As for timing/timing belt: To rule out a broken timing belt, remove distributor cap, turn the crankshaft, and the rotor will turn if the TB is intact. For proper timing, remove valve cover, turn the crank until the flywheel lines up to its TDC mark (there is a cover that you can remove to look). Reverify that the camshaft turns while doing this. If it does, see if the two marks on the camshaft sprocket line up with the top of the cylinder head.

the distributor was brand new and bought online.

its an lx if i remember correctly
automatic (most gears are gone) but that dosnt really matter
not sure about the ignition control module i know he has not purchased one ( but as far as it being purchased with the dist. i dont know i wasnt there for the purchase or installation of the dist.

The oil leak. oh what a ****ing mess that is. as you know the exhaust runs under the oil pan. the oil pan gasket and the drainplug are both leaking so bad that u really cant tell if its leaking else where. the drainplug is an easy fix. but the oil pan.....damn
Exhaust bolts and nuts are stripped. cant get the exhaust down to remove the oil pan. it really needs to be pressure washed so that the UV DYE method can be used to determine where ALL the places its leaking from. its way to messy to visually see. to be honest when u look at it it looks like its leaking from every place it could possibly leak from.

Its about a quart a week loss when it was running by previous owner.

by the way this car was bought from one friend to another. the previous owner to fortyfootelf was legally blind and it made it more difficult for him to care for the vehicle. now its in shambles and fortyfootelf is trying to fix it up.

The engine has always sounded like it was misfiring and way out of timing. occasional startup smoke probably just blowby from piston rings which is normal for being so old.

A cold compression test might be a good idea, by how you describe the condition of the car. It won't give you an accurate read on the max compression, but you would be able to determine if one cylinder is dead relative to the other ones.

You should try to find oil leaking from its highest point. Common leaks are from the valve cover gasket, oil pressure sending unit, oil filter, drain plug, distributor o-ring, oil pan gasket.

What you want to check is if oil is getting on the timing belt. There are shaft seals that can leak oil back there. There is a balance shaft retainer to prevent one from popping off. An oil soaked timing belt will shorten its life and a broken TB = cylinder head repair.

Yeah thats pretty common knowledge well for me he may not know that. but thank you for the pointers of the common areas that may leak. i really hate the fact that its a Belt and not a chain like the ecotec but i guess they had some reason to put a belt on.

Lets pray to god it isnt a timing belt problem cause cranking over the engine could end up with a valve stem bent and really chewed up pistons. im also hoping that he hasnt thrown a bearing on the crank. cause that would be disastorous and would explain the knocking and "misfire feeling"

I will be honest i dont know much about hondas, so i am going to ask you can you do a balance shaft delete on this block? if so would you have to get adjustable cam shaft sprockets to up the timing a bit? cause if he has to replace the belt then he may as well do what i did to my block.

and ill let him use my compression tester this weekend. and he cant do any spending for like 2-4 weeks he just got a pitbull and is sucking alot of his income. he was going to buy a new exhaust and headers so we can just cut the old one off to fix the oil leak.

but it really looks like he may have to replace pretty much every rubber seal even the valve cover bolts are oil soaked on the outside just little puddles sittin on top the bolts. so its a disaster i look at that car and want to pull my hair out it needs and engine wash bad.....i mean BADDD!!!!!!!! and the sad part is we have used like 8 cans of degreaser(engine brite foaming)

From your description, this engine is in pretty bad shape along with the transmission.

If the compression tests come back low, your friend may want to buy an engine and transmission from a junk yard. A rebuild will be much more expensive.

As for removing the balance shaft, I have no clue how or why you would want to. I keep my car stock, so I don't run into headaches modifying them.

The timing is computer controlled, so I don't know what you could do adjust the timing. There is an EX engine that has vtec (same block as the LX/DX, but different cylinder head), where you would get ~15 more HP. The cam timing is adjusted in the higher rpm with vtec engines. You would need an EX ECU and some wiring modifications to do that.

If I wanted to just go out and buy a new engine i would have already, and the same with a tranny. i am doing this for a learning experience. and yes this car is a piece. i have told everyone this since the day i bought it. and as a matter of fact if you look back at, to at least one of my posts you would have read this somewhere. i am new to engines but have come along way knowledge wise. not saying that i know everything about them, but i just dont want to hear smart*** comments about flux compasitors and blinker fluid bkuz you think i have no clue what im talking about. I do have an idea, just looking for help as "03 Cav" has heen saying. im thinking that it would be best for me to take out the whole engine and replace all of the gaskests and gromets seals and bolts but i have minimum time to do so having a full time job and whatnot. by the time i get off work its dark and i have no portable lights to use. its it really is a weekend job,that is if it isnt raining, or freezing cold. rather than just a freetime day and night job. im already risking working on the car since i dont have the necessiary tools to do it. pretty much what im working with is a ratchet and socket set. so those who want to criticise me you can just suck on my right testicle.

Although i greatly appreciate those who are helping me out and giving me advice. im thankful for your patience. I have checked my main realay and it is still in working condition so if there are any other ideas please let me know...

i had like 6 accord 90-93 and that hapend to me alot and it was the mfi relay its located undere the teh steering wheel the cover its gray and the bottom is brow thats all it is im sure because it happent to me 2 but i learn the hard way on my car ..i replaced alot of parts but the only thing that work it was the relay that relay fits from a 90 all the way to 97 accord

i have actually taken the main relay off of my car and had it tested to see if it was still good, and so be it... it was. so now im leaning towards the fuel pump... i havent had the chance to test it yet bkiz my battery has become dead due to either a short or a ground somewhere in the harness... im stuck in other words... ill have to wait until i can get a friend to help me jump my vehicle...

ok so i havent been active for awhile now, and ive noticed that my friend has been asking you all questions and giving information about what is wrong. i appreciate the help, for those who have helped...
a compression test will be the next thing that i will do to my car thank you PA. i havent had much time nor funds to do much to my vehic lately so i kinda left it where it lay. although i havent given up yet and my will isnt broken, i simply dont have much time except for the weekends, that is if it isnt cold or rainy.

My vote is fuel pump. I purchased a main relay for my 92 Accord when people told me that was my problem. NOT The car was sold years later, with an extra main relay in the trunk. I have posted a link below, that you may want to save. It has a lot of information on 4th gen (90-93) Accords. Good luck with the car. A very smart guy once told me "Diagnose before changing parts" The link below may help you figure it out.
http://www.techautorepairs.com/

i appreciate it nighthawk. i will check my fuel pump once i can actually get my battery charged. thanks for the help bro

The thing is to CHECK the fuel pump, before just buying one.

Get in the habit of turning the key ON but not immediately to START. Listen for the pump to run for 2 seconds then quit. It's not very loud, so you'll want all the ventilation & radio & other noisemakers turned off. If it fails to start even when the pump runs, then you know to look elsewhere entirely.

for future refrences, if it isnt the fuel pumpor the main relay what else could it be, besides spark?

You need a properly timed engine, along with fuel & spark. I always gotta read back through this mega-thread to remind me what's already been checked.

Would you recognize the abnormal cranking sound of a broken timing belt? (Can we rule out that kind of thing entirely?) Got good compression (no holes in the pistons)?

Got spark? (How did you check?)
Got proper fuel pressure at the rail? (How do you know?)

If the pump doesn't run, you gotta check if the wiring is bad between the main relay to the pump.

If the pump DOES run, then it might still be a couple things in the fuel system:
- fuel isn't getting to the rail because kinked or crushed fuel pipe
- injectors aren't firing because they're broken
- injectors aren't firing because their wiring is messed up

If spark is what's missing, then we gotta systematically check stuff to rule it out.
- distributor is actually turning with the engine?
- ECU giving a proper signal to the ignitor?
- ignitor OK? giving proper signal to fire the coil?
- coil OK?
- distributor rotor OK? Cap & plug wires?

We all have a tendency to jump right to the common things that always seem to fail. When that's not it, we should go back to a systematic check of everything, take nothing for granted. Like maybe take this list & tell us what you have already checked out.

heyJim, i appreciate your help. this weekend if the weather isnt too crazy ill have to check all of these things out. staring with the fuel pump? that shouldnt take long after my battery charges. im not thinking that my timing belt is broken bkuz there was not wierd sound that i heard last attempt on trying to start the vehicle. it was trying to start, but it just couldnt. it turned over and all just wouldnt start. although i havent put much work into it since i replaced the radiator and distributor everything else that i have replaced were installed correctly according to my haynes.

Well, you're the one who has to keep track of what things have already been checked. It's just that posting in 25 different threads I can get confused which is which. Then I always have to step back & look at just what was done.

if i might chime in..........this is getting way too long ..

1... on a earlier post you said that you sprayed ether in the throttle body and car did not start .. that eliminates the fuel pump,, by spraying ether in the throttle body you are basically bypassing the fuel pump

2... remove the oil filler cap.. have someone crank the engine while you look if the cam shafts moves ( rocker arms move,,, ) if they do ,,timing belt is not broken ,, timing belt could have slipped and cam timing is way off ,,chk cam timing as well..

3... have you tested to see if you get spark ????? pull a plug wire off, insert an old plug in the wire , ground the plug ( valve cover ground strap will do ) have someone crank the engine ..if you DO NOT get spark ,, go to the DIY section and read up on the post how to diagnose for lack of spark ,, could be a bad ignitor or coil.... if you get spark ignitor and coil are ok,,,,

4..if and when car starts get rid of those plugs and put in a set of NGK ZFR5F-11..

5...when you turn the key on, does the chk engine lite come on and then it goes off after about 5-6 seconds??

6... any stored codes in the ecu ???

7...if all those are ok,, do a compression test ...

8... doing a poll and ask what is most likely to be wrong is not the proper way to diagnose an issue ,,I even got a chuckle out of that ... what if 4 -5 members said it is a bad relay 4-5 said a bad distributor would you have just replaced it , without even diagnosing it.. so my friend,, no more polls that is not the way to properly diagnose an issue

9...Hondadude is a very good tech ,, he was not laughing at you to insult you or make fun of you ,,,, but being a good tech he diagnoses problems and not just throw 5-6 things out there ,,,,,,,,making a poll is a very odd and wrong way to ask for help and find a solution ...

10.....http://www.techautorepairs.com/ read up and diagnose ,,, we cannot diagnose it from here ,,hope this helps

11... chk the main ecu ground it is located at t-stat housing , make sure that ground wire is tight and ground is not corroded

try all of those and let us know. No more questions till you have tried all of these suggestions ..

AND LAST .. WHeelbrokerang... How do we get rid of the poll ???????

Desert,

I copied posts to a new thread, then deleted the original thread with the poll.

thanks PA.......:-)

sorry for pissing yall off just tryin to get the most feedback and different answers in order to see what has the best possibility ofthe problem. i wasnt meaning for the poll to be a way to get an answer but more or less i used it to state what i thought could be the problem.

I for one am not pissed off at all, and i am pretty sure that none of the other members are either .(That's what makes this forum great ,, nobody gets pissed off, no abusive language,, we are here to help people in need but there is only so much that we can do ,,hands on diagnostic is something that people who seek help have to do themselves )...........
Speaking of which,,...have you done any diagnostic work on all the suggestions that you have received from all the members??

Many things could keep an engine from starting, there is why you have to do the eliminating process...

thanks man, and i appologize for the obserd language, i didnt mean it in a derogitory way. i havent yet had the time to do any of the testing as of yet, more than likely that will be done this weekend depending on my work schedual. i work too much so by the time i get home i dont have much daylight to do anything. and another thing is that i dont have any portable light either. my friend said i could borrow his compression tester so hopefull i can get back to yall soon.

i know this isnt anything that you all had suggested me to do but i had approx. 30 minutes of daylight yesterday to look at my vehic, so i took advantage. i know that when i was replacing the fuel filter that i accidently unplugged some vacuum lines. so i printed off a maping diagram to make sure that they were all still plugged in correctly. and of course they were, so no problems there. also i took off my EGR valve to see what it looked like. it was fairly dirty, and since i already had it off it only made sence to cleen it up as good as i could with what i had. so there is an update of what i did yesterday. clean EGR and correctly routed vacuum lines

getting fuel for sure
 

ok another update. i am deffinatly getting fuel, i sprayed carb cleaner in the throttle body or intake rather and still no start so i took out my fuel injectors to clean up a little bit and tried again, there was gas spuing everywhere so they were for sure getting gasoline. so that leads me to think that somewhere im not getting a strong enough spark... is that possible?