so today I bled my brakes, and little to no air bubbles came out of the fluid. However when i finished, the brake pedal seemed to be able to pushed to the floor even easier than before I bled the brakes. I bled them correctly (i hope), and Closed the bleeder screws before the person pumping the pedal got it to the floor. So Since the pedal went down so easily, I bled them all again. No air bubbles came out of any of them, just fluid. Then the pedal went down to the floor even easier. The reservoir was topped off, and I was careful never to let the person pumping the brakes lift the brakes up while the bleeder was open. So now the pedal can be pushed all the way down really easily. The pedal doesnt creep at all when I'm stopped, it just can be pushed to the floor super easily. What could have happened?
Heres what I did just to double check it was correct:

I would have the person at the brakes relieve pressure in the booster by pumping the brakes a few times, then I would connect a hose to the bleeder screw. I had the person at the brakes push on the brakes, and I cracked the bleeder screw, then the person at the brakes would say when it was nearing the end and yell "okay" then i would close it. When the bleeder was closed, i would yell "closed" and the person at the brakes would let the pedal up. I would repeat that process 5 or 6 times at each wheel. Was that enough? Should I have done it more? No air seemed to come out.

Thanks.

 

Did the system ever leak any fluid?

The rear brake lines are longer and may take more attempts to remove any air from the system. If you didn't see any air bubbles come out, then I would start to suspect that the master cylinder is bad.

You can get a rebuild kit for <$50 from adavance auto parts or a rebuilt one for <$100. I think that new ones are a bit more expensive. Replacing the internal parts is pretty simple with the rebuild kit. You may need snap ring pliers to get one of them out, and slowly pull out the old internal seals so you put the new ones in the right way.

 

correct me if im wrong, but if it were the master cylinder, wouldnt the pedal sink at stoplights? it doesnt sink at all, its just mushy.

 

You can try re-bleeding to remove air from the lines. The rear ones may take more than 6 attempts. I read someone trying like 20-30. Did you ever have a loss of brake fluid due to a leak?

If you bleed the entire system and the pedal is still mushy, then that can only leave a faulty master cylinder. I don't like to be patient with brakes, because they are a critical safety item on a car. If bleeding the lines doesn't work, then expect to replace or rebuild the master cylinder.

 

never had a leak on the car. Master cyl was topped off when i got the car and the level hasnt changed at all since.

Im going to try doing the rear ones some more, and if that doesnt help ill go from there.

 

Nah that doesn't sound right for bleeding... It shouldn't be WORSE after bleeding... if the master cyl had sprung a leak, it would only ever get worse, and you would have noticed while driving..

Make sure you start with the line from the farthest from the M.C..

When actually bleeding, the PROPER technique is to have the person in the car pump about 5-10 times rapidly in succession, and then on the last time stomp and HOLD the brake down, while you loosen the bleeder and re-tighten after the air is out.
Also remember to keep the M.C. topped off every 2-3 bleed attempts.. last thign you want is to hit bottom and have to re-bleed the entire system.

Sounds like the technique you did would suck in more air if it wasn't timed absolutely perfectly (literally down to the millisecond).

Also, keep in mind that after a few years bleeding can potentially have NO/A NEGATIVE effect on the car if it's too saturated with water (the glycol in brake fluid is very susceptible to absorbing water when it heats up, thus resulting in later boiling and causing air in lines). If you're not getting any air out and your fluid is a milky brown, that's boiled water-infested brake fluid. Time to flush the brake fluid (which royally sucks btw)


I would start by making sure you're bleeding properly, as it doesn't sound like it.

Also, there's a tool my buddy let me use that will let you do the job as an individual... it's a hand pump that keeps a pressure steadied by your pumping, and you can do each line in one attempt with it, which makes it nice. just put a vacuum on the line, open until a steady stream of fluid is coming through and close it up..

 

thats exactly how we did it, actually, except we repeated the process a few times. I was also careful to never let the MC get all the way down.

I did it according to the helms manual, rear right, front left, rear left, front right.


I might give flushing a shot, it sounds like that could be a problem.

i agree, from the way it seems, i bled them improperly, however I was very careful never to let any air back into the lines, and only opened the bleeder when there was presure from the brake pedal. I think im going to try the back two one more time...

 

Im starting to think there may be too much free play in the pedal, do you think that might be a cause?

 

i haven't looked at the accord's pedal to see how it connects to the master cylinder... hopefully it's not a PITA to adjust...

but honestly if it's softer than before, then something went wrong in the bleeding process.

I'm not a brake bleeding master by any means, but I'd have to disagree with the helms manual there... I've always read, no matter what car it is, to always start from the line furthest from the MC... so IMO that would be RR, RL, FR, FL; assuming your MC is on the driver side.
Also, i've always successfully used the technique i said earlier: pump 5-10 times, and hold down on the last one... Then and only then, break open the brake line and close.. tell person in car to let off the brakes, wait a few secs and try again... repeat until no more air comes out... most likely they won't notice too much of a difference until the car is turned on (oh yeah, do this with the car completely off, no current in the car).

Here's new vs old brake fluid: http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...6/DSC01718.jpg just looks used... From what I've read, and this is actually kinda scary, the coloration is due to the brake fluid breaking down the copper in the brake lines... There are inhibitors in the fluid mixture to obviously try and retard this action, but in the end it still corrodes it.

This is brake fluid starting to be over-saturated with water (it's not quite there, but pretty close): http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n...6/DSC01726.jpg
If it's too far gone, it'll be slightly more milky; almost like a frappuccino. Notice that you can't see through it at all... That's usually when it's a good time to do a full flush.

Here's a good article about dot3: http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm
This is a decent youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DN-cw6cOLY video is blurry for some odd reason, but it kinda gives you the gist of everything important. Obviously made for the public (aka stupid people)

For flushing, people have suggested use a turkey baster to remove the fluid from the cylinder, fill with new, and bleed the lines as normal until you see purely clear/clean fluid.
IMO, this is a PITA, and potentially mixes your new fluid with your old fluid, thus causing waste... I've often thought of just completely draining, and bleed as needed.. would definitely require MORE bleeding, but in my mind it kinda forces all the old gunk out...

Also, "they" say to flush your fluid every 12-15k... I don't know anyone that's EVER flushed their fluid... I've had cars over 20 yrs old never even bled before and still braked ok.. so I mean ymmv, but better safe than sorry...

Also, as a test let the fluid sit for about an hour and see if any deposits sink to the bottom - you might be suprised!

 

nafango2,

I change my brake fluid every 2 or so years, and sometimes get the same thing, but the pedal only goes to the floor once, and then it's good to go.

I have a pneumatic fluid vacuum gizmo, and can drain all four lines in about a half hour. You'd be more than welcome to stop over sometime if you want to work on it together. I'm on the north side of Milw. around 86th & Capitol. It'd be good to meet another member anyway.