if memory serves that bolt should be torqued to 180 ft/lbs, that being said if you get somewhere close to that I'd say you'll be fine, if you're unsure I'd just pay the 10 or $15.00 or whatever it is to have that shop tighten it properly... that's just my opinion though

 

Where the manual says not to use an impact wrench, I think that's because of it's tendency to turn the crankshaft backwards. That poses the risk of the timing belt jumping a tooth. I'm not sure how risky that really is. I've used my electric impact wrench to tighten that bolt & haven't had troubles. Just watch so it doesn't move the crankshaft much...

 

All right, guys... I just had the mother of all hard starts. Even though I haven't written in a little while, my hard start has been creeping back in over the past week or two, steadily getting worse and worse. Well, tonight, I hit rock-bottom. I'm going to explain in great detail what just happened and invite as much feedback as I can get. I'm really, really stumped, and to be honest with you, I'm now leaning away from fuel delivery problems and spark problems and thinking that maybe this is an emissions issue. I'm an idiot at diagnosis, though, so if you do not agree, feel free to shoot down anything I say.

Okay, here's Jon's story. I went to the video store to grab a few DVDs for the evening. I was in the store for around 30-45 minutes. I came out to the car, ready to go home, and tried to start her up. For the first time EVER (since the beginning of my hard start issue, I mean) my hard start became a no start. I turned her over and turned her over and nothing. Not even the slightest hiccup to let me know that she was even trying to fire. It's been suggested to me over and over again that the MFR might be bad. So, at this point, I'm thinking that that's what it is. These people also have said that if you wait half an hour or so, often times this no-start will fix itself and the car will miraculously start. I wasn't far from home and I had my skates in the back, so I headed home to do a little MFR research while I waited to see if the problem was going to work itself out. I was gone maybe another 45 minutes. So, we're looking at a total of 1:30-1:45 since she'd been running.

Anyway, I get back to the car and cross my fingers. Same story. Extended crank without even the slightest indication that she wants to fire. At this point, I was still thinking MFR. I get out of the car, grab a screw driver, pull the #1 plug wire, and set it up so that I can crank the car and see whether spark will jump to ground. I start to crank her and see spark right away. So, I reconnect the plug, shut the hood and hop back into the driver's seat. I decided to try again. I cranked her over, off and on, for about the next three minutes, and finally, I decide to give up. I hadn't gotten any indication whatsoever that she wanted to fire, so why wouldn't I? I got out of the car, went into the video store to ask them not to tow my car, then came back out to contemplate my next move.

So, I'm coming back out to the car, and I hop back into the driver's seat. By this point, it's been almost two hours since she'd run. The temperature is only 48 degrees out, so I'm doubting the validity of the hot weather MFR failure scenario. Everything's quiet where I'm at, so I hop inside the car and turn on the key. I'm listening for MFR relay click and also to see if the pump is powering up when I turn on the key. Heard one click from the dashboard, but that one was in conjunction with the Check Engine Light turning off. I DO hear the pump, however. I turn the key off and on a few times, and everytime, I can hear the pump cycle on.

So, now I'm doubting MFR problems and thinking along the lines of crank or cam sensors. That wouldn't explain the rough idle on start-up, but hell... right now I don't even have start up. I'd all but given up and decided to walk home when I decided that one more try wouldn't hurt. So, I let her rip. Now, I know I'm not supposed to do this, but I decided to hold the key for an extended period of time. I'm rolling the starter for about 30 seconds when I get the slightest little hiccup from the car during turnover. It's not that she actually tried to start, but at least it was a slight indication that fuel and fire were getting into the cylinders at the right times. So, I tried to roll her over again. Same thing. After a little while, I get the slight little hiccup during the extended crank. Once again, though, nothing that could be mistaken for a genuine attempt at idling by the car.

Now, I try another idea. I decide to crank her over for just a few seconds at a time, one right after another. I crank the starter for about 2 seconds, then release, then wait a second and repeat. About every third or fourth time I do this, something happens. It's a little more than a hiccup this time, but not quite into the realm of "attempting to idle". But, it is a source of optimism. So, I decide to flutter the hell out of the gas whenever this happens. The next time it does, I jack-hammer the hell out of the accelerator and she tries to run. Very poorly, but tries to run no less. She never actually gets to idle, but before completely dying, she decides to back-fire on me. It wasn't the loud, firecracker kind of backfires that I'm used to. Like the kind you get out of the tailpipe. It kinda sounded like the car coughed back at me through the intake and the throttle body.

The whole process is still getting better, though, so I repeat what I'm doing. Two more times, I get the "attempted idle" and "backfire before dying". Then, on the fourth time, she decided to run for me. It starts out really bad. The idle is REALLY rough. I can't over-emphasize how rough the idle was. She coughs at me a few times, but somehow keeps from dying. Then, slowly but surely, the idle starts to get stronger. She stops shaking... then, just like that, the idle catches. The tach shoots up to 1200 rpm (or whatever the cold-idle rpm is) and the car runs like a dream. No hesitation. No missing. It was just like nothing was wrong. I drove her home and she ran like a champion. I don't get it!!

The only thing I can think of is vapor lock. You know the way old carbureted cars used to do that? Well, I didn't think that fuel injected cars really did that, since FI systems run at higher pressure. But, that's the only thing I can think of. It feels to me like my car is choking on it's own exhaust and has to spit out whatever it's choking on in order to run like it's supposed to.

So, what do you guys think? I'm baffled. This is some ridiculous ****. If you can help or lend me any type of experience or expertise, I'd greatly appreciate anything you can tell me. Oh, and thanks for reading this epic. Sorry if you fell asleep half way through.

I thank you in advance for any help that you can give.
Jon

 

did you ever chk the TW sensor like i suggested on previous post??? it sure sounds like a bad TW sensor ..telling the ecu that engine is cold thus ecu richens the mixture and engine acts like it is flooded ...

also when car does not start you need to chk for lack of spark or fuel..

chk engine lite on ?? if so read and post the code

 

All right, guys (and gals). I wanna thank you for all of your input. I think I figured out what's wrong. I've suspected this was the deal for a while (since I was in California during the summer, in fact), but tried to deny the truth as long as I could. I'm afraid I can't do that anymore. Drumroll, please. Those of you who suggested that I check the head gasket... looks like you'll be getting gold stars for the day.

I went out to the car today, filled her with coolant, then fired her up with the radiator cap off. Holy hell!! Coolant shot straight outta the filler neck and up into the air about 18 inches. Once she was running, I filled her up again, and, sure enough, I saw bubbles. Not really the "gusher" that most people talked about. But, bubbles no less. The gusher came when I fired her up. So, I really don't see anything else that it could be besides a head gasket.

So, now I guess it's time to ask for some advice. I'll probably embark on the job next week. I don't want to start on it right away. I do have a few questions for all of you, though. If you could lend me a little feedback, I'd appreciate it. I've never done a head gasket on a Honda before. I've done them on Mitsubishi motors, so the only basis for comparison I have for a front wheel drive four cylinder will have to come from that. The Mitsu was a dual cam, though. My Accord is only a single. So, I'm going to post some questions. Feel free to help me out with any suggestions you have.

Oh, and I realize that I've asked some of these questions before. Just hoping for more input. Here we go:

First off, what will I need? A head set, obviously. Most times, it would be recommended that I replace the timing belt and the water pump. Just did both of those a couple of weeks ago, so I'm good there. Anything else you guys can think of?

How about specialty tools?

Don't use Roloc or any other abrasive products on the aluminum parts, right? What should I clean the gasket surfaces with, then? Sand paper? Emery cloth? Nothing?

Copper gasket spray on the head gasket or not?

How much time should I allot? A couple of days?

Plane the head, or just check it to see if it's straight? Also, will the cam need to come off of the head when I take it in to be planed? I would imagine so, huh? Don't they steam clean those things before they even start?

How about the block? It's aluminum, right? Will it need to be planed? Do they warp often? Should I just mic it to see if it's straight? If it's not, I'll have to pull the motor, right?

Head bolts? Should I replace them? The foremost Honda mechanic in Lincoln, NE told me that he never does and has never run into any problems. Plus, Fel-Pro doesn't offer a head bolt set. That usually indicates that they can be re-used. Usually, whenever the manufacturer recommends replacement of the head bolts for every head job, Fel-Pro will offer a set in the aftermarket. They don't on this car.

That's all I can think of right now. If you guys know any more tricks of the trade, I'd appreciate and secrets you can tell me. In the mean time, thanks again for all of your input.

Jon

 

Are you positive the TW sensor is working? I know Sir_Nasty suggested it, and I have to second his opinion. I posted here with a hard starting problem that eventually turned out to be the TW sensor. In the end it was a 30 dollar part and took half an hour of my own time to fix. My thread:https://www.hondaaccordforum.com/ign...m_28146/tm.htm

It may or may not help. Best of luck, man.

 

I'm in the middle of everything right now. The job is going well except for one thing. I've got the head loose, but can't pull it out of the car because the coolant pipe that runs between the water pump and the thermostat housing won't let go at the t-stat. Any idea why this is? Is it just an o-ring that has to be popped loose, or are there still bolts holding it in? Can't tell for sure.

If you can help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
Jon

 

There may be a bolt holding this in. Here is a pic. Hope it helps.

[IMG]local://upfiles/5767/389E5CABF13C46838F1DAB32631F63A8.gif[/IMG]

 

Guess What, Guys!! I fixed her!!! Well, almost. Even though more than a few people suggested that I was making a mistake, I decided to go ahead and change the head gasket. The dissenters seem to feel that I was undertaking such a huge job without proper diagnosis. While I took heed to what they said, here are the reasons that I ultimately decided that I needed a new head gasket:

1. Loss of coolant, yet when I'd pressurize the system, no leak could be found.
2. Excessive pressure in the cooling system. I would have coolant blowing back out of the overflow reservoir and the hoses felt really, really pressurized when the car was running. I think that this is ultimately what led to my leaky water pump.
3. Steam from the tail-pipe. I denied the existence of this for a long time, trying to convince myself that the little bit of white stuff coming out of my exhaust was nothing more than engine heat. You know... all cars do that when the weather's cold. But, the more I watched other cars, the more I realized that they didn't have as much "heat" as I did.
4. The geyser that shot out of my radiator when I took the cap off and started the car without putting it back on. Coolant shot about 18 inches into the air.
5. My hard start. This was getting worse and worse.

Here's my theory. When the car was running, the combustion chamber was producing way more pressure than the cooling system. That much is obvious. If the head gasket isn't holding, the high pressure will spill over to the low pressure side. That causes excessively pressurized hoses, leaky water pumps, blow back into the cooling reservoir, and geysers when the car is started with no radiator cap. When the car is shut down, now the cooling system has way more pressure than the combustion chamber, much more, if the head gasket isn't sealing. If said gasket will allow, this pressure will bleed back from the cooling system into the combustion chamber, sending coolant with it. Now, the next time I start, unless this coolant has evaporated, I've got to start a car with at least one cylinder full of coolant. That explains the hard start and the steam coming from the back.

Pretty air-tight theory, if you ask me. Especially considering that none of these problems have come back since I replaced the head gasket. No coolant loss. The hoses aren't so tight when the cars running. Haven't checked for the geyser, but no cooland blows back into the overflow reservoir. Normal amount of steam from behind now. And most importantly, not a single hard start since I got her running again.

I'm not quite finished, though. Every once in a while, the Check Engine Light decides to turn itself on. This has NEVER happened in the entire time that I owned the car, so it's gotta be related to what I just did. I'm guessing that I didn't get a sensor or a vacuum line hooked up quite right or at all. Problem is, I'm relatively new to Honda, so I don't know how to pull the codes. Can anyone help on this?

One last thing before I go. Remember when I asked about cleaning the aluminum surfaces of gasket material. I found the perfect way to do it. No one mentioned this before, so I'll do it now. 3M makes a Roloc disc called the "bristle disk" (I think that's what it's called). Many people refer to it as a "finger disc" (or something like that). It's a really soft disk with little fingers on it made of soft rubber and designed to clean aluminum surfaces without damaging the metal. They're about seven bucks and the adapter for an air tool is about ten more. I used only one disk on the whole job and it made my life a lot easier. I recommend the hell out of these things to everyone.

All right, that's all I've got. I thank you again for all of your help, and hope that you can help me with this CEL problem. Then we can put this thread to bed.

Jon

 

Glad you got it fixed! As far as the CEL goes you'll have to remind me again what car you have (post it in your signature) since I'm to lazy to jump back a page. However, I believe there is a full write up in the DIY section on the codes and how to pull them.... the easiest way is to just go to autozone if possible and have them test it for you then let us know what the code is, even if the light isn't on it should store it so you know what it is.