Hey guys,

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to be as detailed as can be on an issue like this.

I've got a 2002 Accord SE 2.3L-ULEV AT with 148K on the odometer. Stock as can be. Bought it with 50K from an independent dealer in 2007. Ran great.

Around 100K mi or so (early 2010), I felt the engine "skip" once when going up a big hill. Thought I might have fallen victim to the transmission issues that plague the 6th gen. Had a CEL. Took it to the local mechanic, was throwing one code for VTEC error. Turns out it was hilariously low on oil. Had to add about 2.5 quarts to bring it up to level. Was just fine after that. Continued to check the oil every few days after that, but the consumption at this point seemed to be maybe one or two quarts between changes (typical OCI for me - 9k with Mobil 1 syn and Bosch filters).

In late fall of 2010 I had a CEL come on. Took it to Autozone to get it read, was P1491 - EGR valve lift insufficient. Didn't think too much of this, in fact, the CEL would go away and come back intermittently. Around this same time, the engine started using a lot of oil. Had to add about a quart every few weeks (1500 miles or so).

As time went on, the oil consumption got worse, and the CEL came on more often. If the CEL was on, the car would have a rough idle while warmed up. If not on, idled just fine. Confirmed P1491 was the only code at this point in time. Now, the CEL has been constantly on for the past two months or so. It came to a head two months ago, when driving home one night, I got a flashing CEL and felt the engine running terribly when trying to go up even the smallest of hills, guessing this was from the misfires.

Took it to my local mechanic the next day. Told them about the EGR issue and the misfires, and they put in new plugs, wires, and distributor cap. Told me that if I saw misfires again, they wanted to put in a new intake manifold. P1491 was still present, mechanic wasn't able to clear the code - came back on instantly.

Car was running comparatively fine for the past few months - still a bit of a rough idle, and did have one or two misfires trying to go up a very hilly interstate at speed. Seemed to be a rough correlation between having the oil topped up and less chance of having these things happen. By that, I mean I would see a noticeably rougher idle at 90% oil capacity vs. 100%.

Oil consumption reached the point of about 1qt every 500mi in the past month. Given I still had this EGR issue, and that my local mechanic's suggestion of a new intake manifold seemed a bit off track from my research - I decided to have the dealer check it out. Haven't been able to check codes myself either for a month or so, scanner went missing.

Finally took it in a couple days ago with complaints of oil consumption and rough idle, and an unrelated issue with the SRS light being on.

Dealer called back. Have two codes now: P1491 (EGR lift insufficient) and P0304 (Cylinder #4 misfire). They did a compression test, and found cylinders 1-3 were fine (~175) and cylinder 4 was lame (75). They wanted to try a valve adjustment, and do the EGR kit for around $500, labor included. Not too shabby. I gave the OK to begin work.

Dealer called back again around 5 today. Service manager told me the valve adjustment was done, and compression did not improve on that cylinder. Mechanic did "a little extra" - cleaned the valves and port, and put in a new spark plug for cylinder 4. Still no help. They didn't do the full EGR kit, or a couple other things I wanted to get done (mostly replace tranny fluid - was looking a little brown) - they wanted to give it back to me and see how it runs first, before dumping more money into it.

Thanks for reading! Now, onto my questions:

It seems like the dealer got all the easy fixes out of the way on this misfire issue. What are we looking at now? Rings? What kind of $$$ are we talking here? I'm hearing "four digits" from other forums.

The brown trans fluid is kind of scaring me, given the issues the 6th gen is known to have - this is also leading me towards thinking this car isn't worth fixing up. I may just do a drain and refill on my own in the meantime. Fluid has never been changed to my knowledge. Trans shifts just fine, never skipped a beat. Thoughts?

 

If the compression on cylinder 4 is low, the dealership should do a leak down test. That can help you figure out if the compression leak is due to the valves, head gasket, or the piston rings/cylinder. Search WgrfT0LFMhc on YouTube on how this is done.

The next question is, was is the maximum amount of money you want to spend to fix your car?

 

You may have a couple of issues with the car.

Regarding the EGR problem. There was an EGR pipe kit for the V6 Accord, not the 4 cylinder; so, I'm not sure what "kit" is being referred. When the dealer cleaned the valve and port, is this cleaning the EGR valve and EGR port? If the dealer cleaned the EGR port, a clogged port problem should have been taken care of.

Do you know if the dealer tested the EGR valve? An EGR valve stuck open at idle can cause a misfire at idle. A clogged EGR port will not cause a misfire at idle since EGR valves aren't command open at idle.

For the oil consumption problem, if the car still runs relatively okay, it may be more economical to just keep topping off the oil levels. For your generation car, if the repair price is too high and you want to keep the car, one thing many people do is find a good used replacement engine. They can sometimes be picked up for several hundred dollars.

 

PAhonda: I will ask about this, the service advisor I spoke to wasn't entirely clear on what was done beyond a compression test. I like the car, Edmunds says it's still worth $4K private party; I'm not the type to give up on a car too easily. Not having a payment is nice too

redbull-1: Sorry, my ignorance in thinking the V6 kit might also apply to the 4cyl. They mentioned yesterday that they just wanted to replace the EGR valve itself - I started asking the service advisor about a kit and probably confused everyone.
She (the service advisor) did mention the mechanic cleaned carbon out of a "valve" and a "port", though I'm not entirely sure what she meant by that. Since they told me the EGR valve was simply not working, I'm assuming she meant the valves that contact the camshaft and the intake/exhaust ports. My limited knowledge of ICEs is showing through a bit here.
Though, they are reporting no CEL as of now, so maybe the EGR valve is functional after all. The service manager did drive it around a bit, though I don't know if it was long enough to perform all of the self-tests.

And to clarify, I haven't experienced any misfires (just from seeing a flashing CEL) at idle, only under load.

I'll be stopping by to pick it up tomorrow, I'll grill them a bit more on what was exactly done, and hopefully get to speak directly to the mechanic.

 

I think you are a bit confused about the EGR valve.

The egr valve opens and closes to allow exhaust gas back into the intake side of the engine. That valve is not an intake or exhaust valve that are part of the cylinder head. The EGR valve is outside of the engine.

Typically, the port for the EGR valve gets clogged up with carbon, so the EGR valve will open, but the clog will prevent exhaust from going into the intake manifold. That is the port they likely cleaned out.

You might want to check out car-part.com to price used engines. It searches junkyards by price or distance. Some of the junkyards may be able to install the engine or recommend some place that can install it. Also ask if they do a compression and a leak down test on their motors, or what kind of warranty they have (if you go down the route).

 

Thanks for the clarification on the EGR valve function PAHonda.

Went to pick up the car today - didn't have a CEL when I turned it on, but it quickly came back after driving for a minute. Turned around and had the code read, was just the EGR code again (P1491). So next on the docket was an EGR job to the tune of $417. I know you guys said there's no kit for the 4cyl, but the service advisor guy was talking about drilling out the EGR port, which sounds suspiciously like the kit. Is this standard procedure or is the dealer confused?

Ended up driving the car home - the service advisor said to me, "I'm not sure if you want to dump a lot of money into a car this old with this many miles, so you should take the car back and think about it."

I did also ask about the leakdown test - the service advisor lady confirmed that is part of the compression test procedure but didn't really give any details. Also, though she said on the phone that the compression on cylinder 4 was 80, the report says 125 - which doesn't seem too terrible. I will try to call back tomorrow to confirm exactly what the results of the leakdown test were, had to run to work.

I'm leaning towards fixing the car - it still runs okay, the rough idle seems to be a bit smoothed out after they messed with it at as well. It does need some other things, like ball joints on the suspension, but I figure those are wear items anyway.

 

It seems like the service department is not giving you accurate information.

Find out if they removed the intake manifold and cleaned the port for the EGR valve. If that port was blocked, and they cleaned it out, then EGR gas should flow to the intake manifold. Find out what they are going to do for the $417 repair. Installing that kit will enlarge the EGR port and give you more time before it will plug up again. Cleaning it out will accomplish the same thing.

Find out if they did a leak down test. If they did a leak down test, then the mechanic should know if you are losing compression due to the intake or exhaust valves, the head gasket, or the piston rings. Also verify the results of the compression test.

 

I'm not sure what up with the dealership you went to. I agree with PAHonda that it seems like the service department is not giving you accurate information.

Since you have a ULEV, are you located in California? If so, when it comes time for a smog test, you may failed due to the Check Engine Light on. That would have to be fixed if you are in California. That was a lot of money to pay and still have the EGR problem.