2006 Accord LX-SE 4 Dr Air Conditioner Problem
#1
04-25-2015, 12:52 PM
2006 Accord LX-SE 4 Dr Air Conditioner Problem
Brand New to the forum. Needing some help diagnosing an air conditioner problem. I have a 2006 Honda Accord LX-SE 4 Dr w/ 2.4L and no dual climate control. I have never serviced the A/C until now.
A shop said they topped off the system a few days ago w/ 134a, and it worked for a day or so, but now having the same problem.
It blows cold most of the time, then every now and then, it blows warm for a while, then back cold again. I borrowed some 134a A/C gauges since the last time I attempted A/C work was in the R-12 days and my old hoses need new seals. This is what I found....
I still had my Halogen detector from my R12 days (long time ago). I got it to detect some 134a where it leaked out when I connected the gauges, so I figured it still worked and works on 134a as well. I sniffed every connection and no leaks detected at all and no signs of moist connections or dust collection / oil stains, so I don't think I have any leaks.
Outside Temp was 75F and very humid (94%) in Louisiana.
Put A/C on Max A/C w/ High Fan and A/C blew very cold at 38-42F.
System pressures were 25 psi on low side and 150 psi on high side at idle (~750 rpm). Worked for a long time at idle.
Rev engine to about 2500 rpm and low side starts to drop to around 18 psi and high side went up to about 175 psi and still blowing very cold at 42F in cab.
Continue 2200 rpm and low side continues dropping very slowly. When low side gets to about 15 psi, high side around 180-190 psi, compressor kicks off and cab air gets very warm (b/c compressor is not activated... No A/C).
Let car idle again and low side pressure starts to climb. At about 55 psi on low side and 100 psi on high side, compressor kicks back on and then low side goes back down to 25 psi and high side at 150 psi and cab back to 40F.
I'm thinking it is just low on Freon, even though the shop said they charged it. I'm thinking that the low side should normally be closer to 35 psi. I'm not sure what high side should be.
Both radiator / condenser fans run continuously whether the compressor is running or not when on Max high.
Seems to stay blowing cold (compressor stays on) when idling. Once engine revs up and low side gets too low, it cuts off the compressor and air starts getting hot.
Both low and high side seem to be too low on pressure.
Do I just add 134a until low side gets to 30 psi? Or does this sound like a sticking closed or open Expansion Valve or Compressor getting weak / worn or bad Pressure Switch?
A shop said they topped off the system a few days ago w/ 134a, and it worked for a day or so, but now having the same problem.
It blows cold most of the time, then every now and then, it blows warm for a while, then back cold again. I borrowed some 134a A/C gauges since the last time I attempted A/C work was in the R-12 days and my old hoses need new seals. This is what I found....
I still had my Halogen detector from my R12 days (long time ago). I got it to detect some 134a where it leaked out when I connected the gauges, so I figured it still worked and works on 134a as well. I sniffed every connection and no leaks detected at all and no signs of moist connections or dust collection / oil stains, so I don't think I have any leaks.
Outside Temp was 75F and very humid (94%) in Louisiana.
Put A/C on Max A/C w/ High Fan and A/C blew very cold at 38-42F.
System pressures were 25 psi on low side and 150 psi on high side at idle (~750 rpm). Worked for a long time at idle.
Rev engine to about 2500 rpm and low side starts to drop to around 18 psi and high side went up to about 175 psi and still blowing very cold at 42F in cab.
Continue 2200 rpm and low side continues dropping very slowly. When low side gets to about 15 psi, high side around 180-190 psi, compressor kicks off and cab air gets very warm (b/c compressor is not activated... No A/C).
Let car idle again and low side pressure starts to climb. At about 55 psi on low side and 100 psi on high side, compressor kicks back on and then low side goes back down to 25 psi and high side at 150 psi and cab back to 40F.
I'm thinking it is just low on Freon, even though the shop said they charged it. I'm thinking that the low side should normally be closer to 35 psi. I'm not sure what high side should be.
Both radiator / condenser fans run continuously whether the compressor is running or not when on Max high.
Seems to stay blowing cold (compressor stays on) when idling. Once engine revs up and low side gets too low, it cuts off the compressor and air starts getting hot.
Both low and high side seem to be too low on pressure.
Do I just add 134a until low side gets to 30 psi? Or does this sound like a sticking closed or open Expansion Valve or Compressor getting weak / worn or bad Pressure Switch?
#2
04-25-2015, 03:39 PM
Are both cooling fans running?
Intial good performance does not suggest low refrigerant charge. Fall off in performance may be a defective expansion valve that is closing too much. When low side gets too low, the low side cut-off protection switch activates to shut-down compressor clutch drive (protection from low charge). Only way for low side to go this low is restriction w/ relatively normal high side values.
It appears that system is starved for refrigerant w/ low low side and relatively normal high side values.
This performance might also be caused by moisture in system freezing and causing a partial blockage.
Instead of additional charge, suggest removing all charge, vacuuming for 2-3 hrs, and recharging w/ spec amount of refrigerant (17.6-19.4 oz). Receiver/drier dessicant replacement requires removing the condensor, however if system operates normally after a good vacuum, you may want to replace receiver/drier dessicant (another discharge/recharge).
The expansion valve is integrated to the evaporator and replacement is not described in the shop manual. May have to replace evaporator/expansion valve as a unit, if vacuum/recharge does not remedy.
A complicated case potentially requiring lots of work (expansion valve replacement) to remedy. Suggest a 2nd opinion from autoacforum experts.
good luck
Intial good performance does not suggest low refrigerant charge. Fall off in performance may be a defective expansion valve that is closing too much. When low side gets too low, the low side cut-off protection switch activates to shut-down compressor clutch drive (protection from low charge). Only way for low side to go this low is restriction w/ relatively normal high side values.
It appears that system is starved for refrigerant w/ low low side and relatively normal high side values.
This performance might also be caused by moisture in system freezing and causing a partial blockage.
Instead of additional charge, suggest removing all charge, vacuuming for 2-3 hrs, and recharging w/ spec amount of refrigerant (17.6-19.4 oz). Receiver/drier dessicant replacement requires removing the condensor, however if system operates normally after a good vacuum, you may want to replace receiver/drier dessicant (another discharge/recharge).
The expansion valve is integrated to the evaporator and replacement is not described in the shop manual. May have to replace evaporator/expansion valve as a unit, if vacuum/recharge does not remedy.
A complicated case potentially requiring lots of work (expansion valve replacement) to remedy. Suggest a 2nd opinion from autoacforum experts.
good luck
#3
04-25-2015, 04:11 PM
Yes. Both fans are running continuously when A/C is on Max A/C.
Yeah. I'm thinking that the Expansion Valve is getting stuck (not sure if open or closed), causing the low side to drop too low and cutting the compressor off until pressure builds again. I just want to get some confidence that is it before I go through all the time to remove the evaporator and change the expansion valve. I have the expansion valve in my hand. Just reluctant to pull the trigger. May evacuate and recharge like you said to be sure. I thought it may be still low on Freon, but I found a chart that suggest that my pressures were right in line when it was at idle. Its just when RPMs get high that low pressure drops too low and kicks out compressor.
Yeah. I'm thinking that the Expansion Valve is getting stuck (not sure if open or closed), causing the low side to drop too low and cutting the compressor off until pressure builds again. I just want to get some confidence that is it before I go through all the time to remove the evaporator and change the expansion valve. I have the expansion valve in my hand. Just reluctant to pull the trigger. May evacuate and recharge like you said to be sure. I thought it may be still low on Freon, but I found a chart that suggest that my pressures were right in line when it was at idle. Its just when RPMs get high that low pressure drops too low and kicks out compressor.
#4
04-25-2015, 06:29 PM
I would definitely try a vacuum/recharge before replacing the expansion valve. I looked at evap replacement for 06 Accord and it looks tough.
I've only had one expansion valve failure in my experience and it failed open causing low pressures on both sides.
good luck
I've only had one expansion valve failure in my experience and it failed open causing low pressures on both sides.
good luck
#5
04-27-2015, 07:06 PM
Update....
Well I changed all the O-Rings except the Expansion Valve O-rings (Was trying to avoid that lengthy job!). I decided to change the drier before I vacuum and recharged it, in case it was moisture causing the problems. I had to pull the condenser out from behind the radiator to change the drier (it was attached to the side of the condenser). I knew I would change all the condenser O-rings, so I took the advice to change all the compressor O-rings, since the compressor gets hot enough to deteriorate O-rings over time. There was only one O-ring left after that (coupler connection on the low pressure line), so I just changed it too. So now they are all new except the expansion valve O-rings. I also changed the compressor relief valve O-ring. I also changed both Schrader Valves. I shouldn't have to worry about 10 yr old O-rings for a long time (except the expansion valve).
I oiled all the O-ring with Ether 100 and clean hands.
I also replaced the cabin air filter (it was dirty) and blew out the drain line from under the car.
Drier only holds 1/3 Oz. I let all the Freon out in a sealed clear cup. Not much oil came out in the cup. I put 3/4 Fl Oz of PAG 46 to account for 1/3 Fl Oz for replacing drier and some minimal losses to evacuate in cup although it had no real level in sealed cup after I let the Freon out to replace Drier.
At that time, I still needed to measure the clutch gap to have an idea what that is like. I still have to get a dial indicator.
Pulled a vacuum on it for about an hour and a half now and it held for almost an hour when I cut off the vacuum pump.
I finally figured out that 1 Lb of 134a = 16 Oz of 134a. The label under the hood said 17.6 min to 19.4 max Oz., so that would be 1.1 min to 1.2 max Lbs of 134a. That's what I told them to put. Their machine only took input in Lbs.
After doing all that work and vacuuming and recharging, it is still doing the same thing. The shop said they tapped on the clutch when it wouldn't engage and it kicked in. Looks like I need to purchase a dial indicator and check the gap and reshim while still connected to my AC lines so I don't have to recharge. I found the clutch gap check procedure in the Accord Service Manual.
Do I have to purchase a special tool to hold the pulley (or clutch?) while I unbolt the center bolt???? And then where is a good place to buy shims? Are those shims common to any auto parts store like NAPA or is that unique to an AC shop or only online? Thanks for all the help!!
I sure am learning a lot quickly!! Thanks for all the help!!
Well I changed all the O-Rings except the Expansion Valve O-rings (Was trying to avoid that lengthy job!). I decided to change the drier before I vacuum and recharged it, in case it was moisture causing the problems. I had to pull the condenser out from behind the radiator to change the drier (it was attached to the side of the condenser). I knew I would change all the condenser O-rings, so I took the advice to change all the compressor O-rings, since the compressor gets hot enough to deteriorate O-rings over time. There was only one O-ring left after that (coupler connection on the low pressure line), so I just changed it too. So now they are all new except the expansion valve O-rings. I also changed the compressor relief valve O-ring. I also changed both Schrader Valves. I shouldn't have to worry about 10 yr old O-rings for a long time (except the expansion valve).
I oiled all the O-ring with Ether 100 and clean hands.
I also replaced the cabin air filter (it was dirty) and blew out the drain line from under the car.
Drier only holds 1/3 Oz. I let all the Freon out in a sealed clear cup. Not much oil came out in the cup. I put 3/4 Fl Oz of PAG 46 to account for 1/3 Fl Oz for replacing drier and some minimal losses to evacuate in cup although it had no real level in sealed cup after I let the Freon out to replace Drier.
At that time, I still needed to measure the clutch gap to have an idea what that is like. I still have to get a dial indicator.
Pulled a vacuum on it for about an hour and a half now and it held for almost an hour when I cut off the vacuum pump.
I finally figured out that 1 Lb of 134a = 16 Oz of 134a. The label under the hood said 17.6 min to 19.4 max Oz., so that would be 1.1 min to 1.2 max Lbs of 134a. That's what I told them to put. Their machine only took input in Lbs.
After doing all that work and vacuuming and recharging, it is still doing the same thing. The shop said they tapped on the clutch when it wouldn't engage and it kicked in. Looks like I need to purchase a dial indicator and check the gap and reshim while still connected to my AC lines so I don't have to recharge. I found the clutch gap check procedure in the Accord Service Manual.
Do I have to purchase a special tool to hold the pulley (or clutch?) while I unbolt the center bolt???? And then where is a good place to buy shims? Are those shims common to any auto parts store like NAPA or is that unique to an AC shop or only online? Thanks for all the help!!
I sure am learning a lot quickly!! Thanks for all the help!!
#6
04-27-2015, 07:07 PM
Figured I would post this to help others. This from my Honda Accord Service Manual....
Measure the clearance between the pulley (A) and the pressure plate (B) with a
dial indicator. Zero out the indicator, then apply battery voltage to the A/C
compressor clutch. Measure the movement of the pressure plate when the
voltage is applied. If the clearance is not within the specified limits, the
pressure plate must be reshimmed (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH
OVERHAUL ).
Clearance: 0.35-0.6 mm (0.014-0.024 in.)
Fig. 117: Measuring Clearance Between Pulley And Pressure Plate With
NOTE: The shims are available in three thicknesses: 0.1 mm,
0.3 mm and 0.5 mm.
Remove the pressure plate (A) and shim(s) (B), taking care not to lose the shim
(s). If the clutch needs adjustment, increase or decrease the number and
thickness of shims as necessary, then reinstall the pressure plate, and recheck
2007 Honda Accord
2003-07 HVAC Heating/Air Conditioning - Accord
its clearance (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH CHECK ).
Check resistance of the field coil. If resistance is not within specifications,
replace the field coil (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH OVERHAUL ).
Field Coil Resistance: 3.9-4.3 ohms at 68°F (20°C)
If you are replacing the field coil, remove the snap ring (A) with snap ring
pliers, then remove the pulley (B). Be careful not to damage the pulley or the
A/C compressor.
Remove the screw, the wire harness clip (A), and the holder (B). Remove the
snap ring (C) with snap ring pliers, then remove the field coil (D). Be careful
not to damage the field coil or the A/C compressor.
Reassemble the clutch in the reverse order of disassembly, and note these
items:
Install the field coil with the wire side facing down, and align the boss on
the field coil with the hole in the A/C compressor.
Clean the pulley and A/C compressor sliding surfaces with contact cleaner
or other non-petroleum solvent.
Install new snap rings, note the installation direction, and make sure they
are fully seated in the groove.
Make sure that the pulley turns smoothly after it's reassembled.
Route and clamp the wires properly or they can be damaged by the pulley.
Measure the clearance between the pulley (A) and the pressure plate (B) with a
dial indicator. Zero out the indicator, then apply battery voltage to the A/C
compressor clutch. Measure the movement of the pressure plate when the
voltage is applied. If the clearance is not within the specified limits, the
pressure plate must be reshimmed (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH
OVERHAUL ).
Clearance: 0.35-0.6 mm (0.014-0.024 in.)
Fig. 117: Measuring Clearance Between Pulley And Pressure Plate With
NOTE: The shims are available in three thicknesses: 0.1 mm,
0.3 mm and 0.5 mm.
Remove the pressure plate (A) and shim(s) (B), taking care not to lose the shim
(s). If the clutch needs adjustment, increase or decrease the number and
thickness of shims as necessary, then reinstall the pressure plate, and recheck
2007 Honda Accord
2003-07 HVAC Heating/Air Conditioning - Accord
its clearance (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH CHECK ).
Check resistance of the field coil. If resistance is not within specifications,
replace the field coil (see A/C COMPRESSOR CLUTCH OVERHAUL ).
Field Coil Resistance: 3.9-4.3 ohms at 68°F (20°C)
If you are replacing the field coil, remove the snap ring (A) with snap ring
pliers, then remove the pulley (B). Be careful not to damage the pulley or the
A/C compressor.
Remove the screw, the wire harness clip (A), and the holder (B). Remove the
snap ring (C) with snap ring pliers, then remove the field coil (D). Be careful
not to damage the field coil or the A/C compressor.
Reassemble the clutch in the reverse order of disassembly, and note these
items:
Install the field coil with the wire side facing down, and align the boss on
the field coil with the hole in the A/C compressor.
Clean the pulley and A/C compressor sliding surfaces with contact cleaner
or other non-petroleum solvent.
Install new snap rings, note the installation direction, and make sure they
are fully seated in the groove.
Make sure that the pulley turns smoothly after it's reassembled.
Route and clamp the wires properly or they can be damaged by the pulley.
#7
04-28-2015, 09:33 AM
"After doing all that work and vacuuming and recharging, it is still doing the same thing."
What does this mean? Same pressures as before w/ low cooling?
good luck
What does this mean? Same pressures as before w/ low cooling?
good luck
#8
04-28-2015, 12:51 PM
I blows really cold while the compressor is on (40F), then it will blow hot after the compressor kicks off for a while.
It was kicking the compressor back on after a long while before I changed all the O-rings and Drier. I haven't had enough time to play with it to see if it still kicks back in after a long while of blowing hot, but I know it wouldn't kick in for a long time.
I know it kicks back in if you tap the clutch mildly with a solid object. So I just stopped there and assumed clutch gap is incorrect or coil is going bad.
I will try to check and adjust gap first. If not, likely a bad coil I guess. If gap doesn't fix it, I can try switching solenoids, but it sounds like the solenoid is working. I will have to confirm compressor is getting 12V when compressor is not kicking in.
Compressor sounded really good inside. I listened with a mechanics stethoscope. Doesn't seem to be leaking either.
It was kicking the compressor back on after a long while before I changed all the O-rings and Drier. I haven't had enough time to play with it to see if it still kicks back in after a long while of blowing hot, but I know it wouldn't kick in for a long time.
I know it kicks back in if you tap the clutch mildly with a solid object. So I just stopped there and assumed clutch gap is incorrect or coil is going bad.
I will try to check and adjust gap first. If not, likely a bad coil I guess. If gap doesn't fix it, I can try switching solenoids, but it sounds like the solenoid is working. I will have to confirm compressor is getting 12V when compressor is not kicking in.
Compressor sounded really good inside. I listened with a mechanics stethoscope. Doesn't seem to be leaking either.
#9
04-28-2015, 03:51 PM
Compressor gap adjustment in earlier models (98-02) was adjusted w/ feeler going all the way around the clutch plate. Excess clutch gap seems more likely than intermittent clutch coil, but gap measurement should tell.
good luck
good luck